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	<title>
	Comments on: Edward Snowden continues on his Grand Tour&#8230;	</title>
	<atom:link href="https://thenewneo.com/2013/06/23/edward-snowden-continues-on-his-grand-tour/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://thenewneo.com/2013/06/23/edward-snowden-continues-on-his-grand-tour/</link>
	<description>A blog about political change, among other things</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 25 Jun 2013 04:22:33 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Simon		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2013/06/23/edward-snowden-continues-on-his-grand-tour/#comment-619977</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Simon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 25 Jun 2013 04:22:33 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=29135#comment-619977</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[If we really wanted to punish this Snowden chap, shouldn&#039;t we entreat Russia to keep him, not send him back? I think that would be punishment enough for his &quot;crimes&quot;.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If we really wanted to punish this Snowden chap, shouldn&#8217;t we entreat Russia to keep him, not send him back? I think that would be punishment enough for his &#8220;crimes&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>
		By: parker		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2013/06/23/edward-snowden-continues-on-his-grand-tour/#comment-619668</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[parker]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Jun 2013 16:07:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=29135#comment-619668</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[rickl,

The Hoyt post is a good one.  Thanks. There is a lot of wishing and hoping going on, but the grand correction has only been postponed.  It will not be long nor soft.  Short and sharp with a lost decade or 2 is a better bet.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>rickl,</p>
<p>The Hoyt post is a good one.  Thanks. There is a lot of wishing and hoping going on, but the grand correction has only been postponed.  It will not be long nor soft.  Short and sharp with a lost decade or 2 is a better bet.</p>
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		<title>
		By: rickl		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2013/06/23/edward-snowden-continues-on-his-grand-tour/#comment-619470</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[rickl]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Jun 2013 04:58:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=29135#comment-619470</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Off topic, but Sarah A. Hoyt has written an absolutely terrific post about amnesty:  &lt;a href=&quot;http://accordingtohoyt.com/2013/06/23/come-down-from-that-ledge/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;How to learn to stop worrying and shrug off Amnesty.&lt;/a&gt;

Seriously, it&#039;s a must-read.

She&#039;s an immigrant herself so she can write from that perspective.

She&#039;s a better American than 3/4 of the people I know in real life.

She also knows that a collapse is coming.  Amnesty will accelerate the process, which may not be a bad thing.

She talked me down from the ledge.  Mostly.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Off topic, but Sarah A. Hoyt has written an absolutely terrific post about amnesty:  <a href="http://accordingtohoyt.com/2013/06/23/come-down-from-that-ledge/" rel="nofollow">How to learn to stop worrying and shrug off Amnesty.</a></p>
<p>Seriously, it&#8217;s a must-read.</p>
<p>She&#8217;s an immigrant herself so she can write from that perspective.</p>
<p>She&#8217;s a better American than 3/4 of the people I know in real life.</p>
<p>She also knows that a collapse is coming.  Amnesty will accelerate the process, which may not be a bad thing.</p>
<p>She talked me down from the ledge.  Mostly.</p>
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		<title>
		By: M J R		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2013/06/23/edward-snowden-continues-on-his-grand-tour/#comment-619468</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[M J R]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Jun 2013 04:57:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=29135#comment-619468</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Geoffrey Britain, 12:02 am -- &quot;MJR, I somewhat agree, the 2008 and 2012 elections were both reflective and *indicative* and may, turn out to be determinative of this nation’s future&quot;

I heartily accept (and approve) your substitution of &quot;indicative&quot; for &quot;determinative&quot;, as a friendly amendment to my motion.

I like the distinction you are drawing.  Good show!

G&#039;day, mate . . .]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Geoffrey Britain, 12:02 am &#8212; &#8220;MJR, I somewhat agree, the 2008 and 2012 elections were both reflective and *indicative* and may, turn out to be determinative of this nation’s future&#8221;</p>
<p>I heartily accept (and approve) your substitution of &#8220;indicative&#8221; for &#8220;determinative&#8221;, as a friendly amendment to my motion.</p>
<p>I like the distinction you are drawing.  Good show!</p>
<p>G&#8217;day, mate . . .</p>
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		<title>
		By: Geoffrey Britain		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2013/06/23/edward-snowden-continues-on-his-grand-tour/#comment-619457</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Geoffrey Britain]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Jun 2013 04:02:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=29135#comment-619457</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[MJR, I somewhat agree, the 2008 and 2012 elections were both reflective and &lt;i&gt;indicative&lt;/i&gt; and may, turn out to be determinative of this nation’s future. But if the democrats take back the House in 2014 and then capture it all in 2016, it&#039;s over. The 2014 and 2016 elections have the potential to drive the &#039;final nails&#039; in America&#039;s &#039;coffin&#039;. 

Eric, 

&lt;i&gt;&quot;I think on this issue, libertarians just need to own that they share common cause with leftists and our international competitors.&quot;&lt;/i&gt; 

I&#039;m sorry, what issue? I don&#039;t follow your line of thinking at all. I can&#039;t think of any issue with which &quot;libertarians share common cause with leftists&quot;. What aspect am I missing?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>MJR, I somewhat agree, the 2008 and 2012 elections were both reflective and <i>indicative</i> and may, turn out to be determinative of this nation’s future. But if the democrats take back the House in 2014 and then capture it all in 2016, it&#8217;s over. The 2014 and 2016 elections have the potential to drive the &#8216;final nails&#8217; in America&#8217;s &#8216;coffin&#8217;. </p>
<p>Eric, </p>
<p><i>&#8220;I think on this issue, libertarians just need to own that they share common cause with leftists and our international competitors.&#8221;</i> </p>
<p>I&#8217;m sorry, what issue? I don&#8217;t follow your line of thinking at all. I can&#8217;t think of any issue with which &#8220;libertarians share common cause with leftists&#8221;. What aspect am I missing?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Beverly		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2013/06/23/edward-snowden-continues-on-his-grand-tour/#comment-619456</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Beverly]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Jun 2013 03:55:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=29135#comment-619456</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Well, well, WELL.

Things are getting VERY interesting in the court case about Obama&#039;s citizenship. An attorney has come forward with this testimony about a certain Indonesian student getting aid as a foreign citizen to attend Occidental College:

http://tinyurl.com/mbrtlqo

Pass it on: the only way to get facts past the Praetorian Media is to flood the zone.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, well, WELL.</p>
<p>Things are getting VERY interesting in the court case about Obama&#8217;s citizenship. An attorney has come forward with this testimony about a certain Indonesian student getting aid as a foreign citizen to attend Occidental College:</p>
<p><a href="http://tinyurl.com/mbrtlqo" rel="nofollow ugc">http://tinyurl.com/mbrtlqo</a></p>
<p>Pass it on: the only way to get facts past the Praetorian Media is to flood the zone.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Eric		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2013/06/23/edward-snowden-continues-on-his-grand-tour/#comment-619438</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Eric]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Jun 2013 02:58:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=29135#comment-619438</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Geoffrey Britain,

I think on this issue, libertarians just need to own that they share common cause with leftists and our international competitors. It happens. It&#039;s not a simple issue.

http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/23/politics/nsa-leaks-us-reaction/index.html

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/06/23/pelosis-defense-nsa-boos/2450751/

Regarding the partisan contest, note the end of the USA Today story: &quot;Her remarks criticizing the Republican majority in the House and encouraging powerful women brought applause, cheers and laughs.&quot;

Leftist discontent with Obama on this or any issue doesn&#039;t mean they&#039;ll ever do less than their best to beat down the GOP and the Right.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Geoffrey Britain,</p>
<p>I think on this issue, libertarians just need to own that they share common cause with leftists and our international competitors. It happens. It&#8217;s not a simple issue.</p>
<p><a href="http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/23/politics/nsa-leaks-us-reaction/index.html" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/23/politics/nsa-leaks-us-reaction/index.html</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/06/23/pelosis-defense-nsa-boos/2450751/" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/politics/2013/06/23/pelosis-defense-nsa-boos/2450751/</a></p>
<p>Regarding the partisan contest, note the end of the USA Today story: &#8220;Her remarks criticizing the Republican majority in the House and encouraging powerful women brought applause, cheers and laughs.&#8221;</p>
<p>Leftist discontent with Obama on this or any issue doesn&#8217;t mean they&#8217;ll ever do less than their best to beat down the GOP and the Right.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Lorenz Gude		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2013/06/23/edward-snowden-continues-on-his-grand-tour/#comment-619434</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Lorenz Gude]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Jun 2013 02:49:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=29135#comment-619434</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m not laughing MJR. The future is never clear but the strongest 2016 candidate looks like Hilary and the Republican&#039;s are understandably divided between the establishment types and those that take a truly different stance - like the Tea Part or Rand Paul. The problem as I see it is that those in the Republican party that are seeking to actually change the country in the face of new realities are unlikely to get into power so long as the current Keynesian &#039;extend and pretend&#039; is holding up the old order. I don&#039;t think Romney could have dialed back the stimulus to any significant degree had he won. Heck, the Dems may even get away with it, but I don&#039;t think it can last. In fact as long as the stimulus is working, Tea Party policies would probably bring the old order down abruptly. I think the US will have to play out its hand of corrupt regulated capitalism to the end before American&#039;s native abilities will be allowed to rebuild the country. That is when the Tea Party and constitutionalists will come into there own. We have been too rich, too long and our government in DC has become hopelessly corrupt.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not laughing MJR. The future is never clear but the strongest 2016 candidate looks like Hilary and the Republican&#8217;s are understandably divided between the establishment types and those that take a truly different stance &#8211; like the Tea Part or Rand Paul. The problem as I see it is that those in the Republican party that are seeking to actually change the country in the face of new realities are unlikely to get into power so long as the current Keynesian &#8216;extend and pretend&#8217; is holding up the old order. I don&#8217;t think Romney could have dialed back the stimulus to any significant degree had he won. Heck, the Dems may even get away with it, but I don&#8217;t think it can last. In fact as long as the stimulus is working, Tea Party policies would probably bring the old order down abruptly. I think the US will have to play out its hand of corrupt regulated capitalism to the end before American&#8217;s native abilities will be allowed to rebuild the country. That is when the Tea Party and constitutionalists will come into there own. We have been too rich, too long and our government in DC has become hopelessly corrupt.</p>
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		<title>
		By: M J R		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2013/06/23/edward-snowden-continues-on-his-grand-tour/#comment-619411</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[M J R]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Jun 2013 01:31:01 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=29135#comment-619411</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Geoffrey Britain, 2:31 pm -- &quot;The 2014 and 2016 elections will be reflective if not determinative, of this nation’s future.&quot;

Unless something pretty unexpected happens, the 2008 and 2012 elections were both reflective and determinative of this nation&#039;s future, the 2010 election notwithstanding.

Even if the good guys (albeit infested/infected with RINOs) hold the House in 2014, unless something pretty unexpected happens, holding the House in 2014 merely delays what is already reflective and darn determinative of this nation&#039;s future.

I guess I don&#039;t expect the good guys to prevail in 2016 and beyond, given that our side is practically giving away the game if they insist on admitting all those millions of presently undocumented Democrats.  What would be unexpected is our side holding firm.

Okay . . . stop laughing, will ya?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Geoffrey Britain, 2:31 pm &#8212; &#8220;The 2014 and 2016 elections will be reflective if not determinative, of this nation’s future.&#8221;</p>
<p>Unless something pretty unexpected happens, the 2008 and 2012 elections were both reflective and determinative of this nation&#8217;s future, the 2010 election notwithstanding.</p>
<p>Even if the good guys (albeit infested/infected with RINOs) hold the House in 2014, unless something pretty unexpected happens, holding the House in 2014 merely delays what is already reflective and darn determinative of this nation&#8217;s future.</p>
<p>I guess I don&#8217;t expect the good guys to prevail in 2016 and beyond, given that our side is practically giving away the game if they insist on admitting all those millions of presently undocumented Democrats.  What would be unexpected is our side holding firm.</p>
<p>Okay . . . stop laughing, will ya?</p>
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		<title>
		By: neo-neocon		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2013/06/23/edward-snowden-continues-on-his-grand-tour/#comment-619409</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[neo-neocon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 24 Jun 2013 01:25:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=29135#comment-619409</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Geoffrey Britain:

Snowden is not being charged with espionage, he is being charged with certain very specific violations of the Espionage Act rather than a generic &quot;espionage&quot; crime.  The word &quot;espionage&quot; is not used in those charges.  Nor is he charged with &quot;acting as a spy for a foreign power.&quot; I wrote at some length about this &lt;a href=&quot;http://neoneocon.com/2013/06/22/snowden-none-dare-call-it-treason/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.  And you can read the actual provisions of the Act in question &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/798&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;here&lt;/a&gt;.  

&quot;Publishes&quot; is enough to be considered a possible violation.  And the damage to the US does &lt;i&gt;not&lt;/i&gt; have to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, either.  The information can just be &lt;i&gt;potentially&lt;/i&gt; damaging, which classified information (especially classified at the level of the information Snowden revealed) is ordinarily presumed to be.  It is defined as potentially damaging if it were released, until proven otherwise.  And Snowden did not have to be in the pay or employ of any foreign government nor did he have to give it to a foreign government specifically (although I believe that he in fact &lt;i&gt;did&lt;/i&gt; give some information to Hong Kong and China while he was there that was most definitely detrimental to our interests, about our hacking into Chinese computers).  So whether or not Snowden would be found guilty if he ever came to trial (I personally think he should, but I also think he will never come to trial), the elements of the charges appear to be present.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Geoffrey Britain:</p>
<p>Snowden is not being charged with espionage, he is being charged with certain very specific violations of the Espionage Act rather than a generic &#8220;espionage&#8221; crime.  The word &#8220;espionage&#8221; is not used in those charges.  Nor is he charged with &#8220;acting as a spy for a foreign power.&#8221; I wrote at some length about this <a href="http://neoneocon.com/2013/06/22/snowden-none-dare-call-it-treason/" rel="nofollow">here</a>.  And you can read the actual provisions of the Act in question <a href="http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/18/798" rel="nofollow">here</a>.  </p>
<p>&#8220;Publishes&#8221; is enough to be considered a possible violation.  And the damage to the US does <i>not</i> have to be proven beyond a reasonable doubt, either.  The information can just be <i>potentially</i> damaging, which classified information (especially classified at the level of the information Snowden revealed) is ordinarily presumed to be.  It is defined as potentially damaging if it were released, until proven otherwise.  And Snowden did not have to be in the pay or employ of any foreign government nor did he have to give it to a foreign government specifically (although I believe that he in fact <i>did</i> give some information to Hong Kong and China while he was there that was most definitely detrimental to our interests, about our hacking into Chinese computers).  So whether or not Snowden would be found guilty if he ever came to trial (I personally think he should, but I also think he will never come to trial), the elements of the charges appear to be present.</p>
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