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	Comments on: The HCR ruling: there&#8217;s a pony somewhere	</title>
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	<link>https://thenewneo.com/2012/06/28/the-hcr-ruling-theres-a-pony-somewhere/</link>
	<description>A blog about political change, among other things</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Thu, 28 Jun 2012 18:56:22 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: james		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2012/06/28/the-hcr-ruling-theres-a-pony-somewhere/#comment-376180</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[james]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jun 2012 18:56:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=17662#comment-376180</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Melson: yes, yes,yes! This is what I meant by a poison pill. The Libs are now trapped by this thing. They must now defend taxation, something they did everything on earth to avoid including lying. Since it&#039;s unpopular they must enforce it. No amount of it&#039;s &quot;for the children&quot; etc will save them. Though they hold the field they have ceded the intiative.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Melson: yes, yes,yes! This is what I meant by a poison pill. The Libs are now trapped by this thing. They must now defend taxation, something they did everything on earth to avoid including lying. Since it&#8217;s unpopular they must enforce it. No amount of it&#8217;s &#8220;for the children&#8221; etc will save them. Though they hold the field they have ceded the intiative.</p>
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		<title>
		By: holmes		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2012/06/28/the-hcr-ruling-theres-a-pony-somewhere/#comment-376179</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[holmes]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jun 2012 18:56:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=17662#comment-376179</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Still think it&#039;s a pyrrhic victory (as someone else noted) when the win entails a massive tax on everybody to support a program that is generally unpopular.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Still think it&#8217;s a pyrrhic victory (as someone else noted) when the win entails a massive tax on everybody to support a program that is generally unpopular.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Dan Melson		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2012/06/28/the-hcr-ruling-theres-a-pony-somewhere/#comment-376135</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Dan Melson]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jun 2012 18:05:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=17662#comment-376135</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[It&#039;s a defeat - for now.

If you want repeal, you can no longer rationalize a fantasy that the Supreme Court will do your heavy lifting for you.  You&#039;ve got to get out and elect candidates who will repeal it

Considering nearly 3/4 of all Americans want it repealed and they haven&#039;t been hit by it yet, I&#039;d say the electoral environment just got a lot friendlier for those who pledge repeal, and a lot more hostile to those opposed.

You think someone in favor of repeal is *only* going to repeal Obamacare, think again.  Even if we don&#039;t win enough of this coming election for repeal, it only gets worse for the Obamacare supporters from here on out.  There is no doubt in any economist&#039;s mind precisely what it is going to do to the economy.

Finally, whatever else John Roberts has done today, this is the first acknowledgment *in law* that government imposed taxes and costs of regulation are taxes.  This may be the greatest Trojan Horse in history - and the four liberal justices signed off on it.

Not to mention the ruling on the Medicaid funds, which is going to put a real spike in the federal government&#039;s ability to *force* states to comply.

This could be Progressivism&#039;s high water mark, as well as a Pyrrhic victory of epic propertions.  Yes, they hold the field for now.  But a generation later, Rome had conquered Pyrrhus&#039; homeland]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s a defeat &#8211; for now.</p>
<p>If you want repeal, you can no longer rationalize a fantasy that the Supreme Court will do your heavy lifting for you.  You&#8217;ve got to get out and elect candidates who will repeal it</p>
<p>Considering nearly 3/4 of all Americans want it repealed and they haven&#8217;t been hit by it yet, I&#8217;d say the electoral environment just got a lot friendlier for those who pledge repeal, and a lot more hostile to those opposed.</p>
<p>You think someone in favor of repeal is *only* going to repeal Obamacare, think again.  Even if we don&#8217;t win enough of this coming election for repeal, it only gets worse for the Obamacare supporters from here on out.  There is no doubt in any economist&#8217;s mind precisely what it is going to do to the economy.</p>
<p>Finally, whatever else John Roberts has done today, this is the first acknowledgment *in law* that government imposed taxes and costs of regulation are taxes.  This may be the greatest Trojan Horse in history &#8211; and the four liberal justices signed off on it.</p>
<p>Not to mention the ruling on the Medicaid funds, which is going to put a real spike in the federal government&#8217;s ability to *force* states to comply.</p>
<p>This could be Progressivism&#8217;s high water mark, as well as a Pyrrhic victory of epic propertions.  Yes, they hold the field for now.  But a generation later, Rome had conquered Pyrrhus&#8217; homeland</p>
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		<title>
		By: neo-neocon		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2012/06/28/the-hcr-ruling-theres-a-pony-somewhere/#comment-376111</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[neo-neocon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jun 2012 17:43:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=17662#comment-376111</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[armchair pessimist: I believe that was the intent.

In fact, as luck would have it, right now Rush Limbaugh is playing on his show the tape of Obama (I think from the 2008 campaign) where Obama is talking to supporters and says that in his first term he will pass a health insurance law that will have &lt;i&gt;some&lt;/i&gt; of the characteristics he wants, but won&#039;t yet eliminate employer-provided health insurance.  He says that will happen later--give it perhaps 10 years.

I just found &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2012/03/16/see_i_told_you_so_obamacare_will_eliminate_the_option_of_employer_provided_health_insurance&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;a link to it&lt;/a&gt;.  It was actually in 2007, addressing the SEIU:



&lt;blockquote&gt;OBAMA 2007:  My commitment is to make sure that we&#039;ve got universal health care for all Americans by the end of my first term as president.  I would hope that we can set up a system that allows those who can go through their employer to access a federal system or a state pool of some sort. But I don&#039;t think we&#039;re gonna be able to eliminate employer coverage immediately.  There&#039;s going to be potentially some transition process.  I can envision a decade out or 15 years out or 20 years out.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>armchair pessimist: I believe that was the intent.</p>
<p>In fact, as luck would have it, right now Rush Limbaugh is playing on his show the tape of Obama (I think from the 2008 campaign) where Obama is talking to supporters and says that in his first term he will pass a health insurance law that will have <i>some</i> of the characteristics he wants, but won&#8217;t yet eliminate employer-provided health insurance.  He says that will happen later&#8211;give it perhaps 10 years.</p>
<p>I just found <a href="http://www.rushlimbaugh.com/daily/2012/03/16/see_i_told_you_so_obamacare_will_eliminate_the_option_of_employer_provided_health_insurance" rel="nofollow">a link to it</a>.  It was actually in 2007, addressing the SEIU:</p>
<blockquote><p>OBAMA 2007:  My commitment is to make sure that we&#8217;ve got universal health care for all Americans by the end of my first term as president.  I would hope that we can set up a system that allows those who can go through their employer to access a federal system or a state pool of some sort. But I don&#8217;t think we&#8217;re gonna be able to eliminate employer coverage immediately.  There&#8217;s going to be potentially some transition process.  I can envision a decade out or 15 years out or 20 years out.</p></blockquote>
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		<title>
		By: neo-neocon		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2012/06/28/the-hcr-ruling-theres-a-pony-somewhere/#comment-376109</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[neo-neocon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jun 2012 17:40:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=17662#comment-376109</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[holmes: I wish I could agree with you that it&#039;s a victory, and I appreciate the pep talk, but I think it&#039;s a defeat, although a defeat from which the right can recover, if it is strong enough.

The problem is that legal rulings are complex, and this one certainly is.  The distinction between commerce clause powers and taxation powers may be clear to us, but to most people all this will mean is &quot;Obamacare was upheld, therefore it&#039;s a victory for Obama.&quot;

And that&#039;s the way the MSM is spinning it, of course.  People often read headlines and not much else.  &lt;a href=&quot;http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/supreme-court-issue-obamacare-decision-135554880.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Here&#039;s&lt;/a&gt; a typical headline that blurs the distinction: &quot;Supreme Court upholds Obamacare individual mandate as a tax.&quot;  The article goes on to say in its first sentence, &quot;In a victory for President Barack Obama, the Supreme Court upheld his signature health care law&#039;s individual insurance mandate in a 5-4 decision, upending speculation after hostile-seeming oral arguments in March that the justices would overturn the law. &quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>holmes: I wish I could agree with you that it&#8217;s a victory, and I appreciate the pep talk, but I think it&#8217;s a defeat, although a defeat from which the right can recover, if it is strong enough.</p>
<p>The problem is that legal rulings are complex, and this one certainly is.  The distinction between commerce clause powers and taxation powers may be clear to us, but to most people all this will mean is &#8220;Obamacare was upheld, therefore it&#8217;s a victory for Obama.&#8221;</p>
<p>And that&#8217;s the way the MSM is spinning it, of course.  People often read headlines and not much else.  <a href="http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/supreme-court-issue-obamacare-decision-135554880.html" rel="nofollow">Here&#8217;s</a> a typical headline that blurs the distinction: &#8220;Supreme Court upholds Obamacare individual mandate as a tax.&#8221;  The article goes on to say in its first sentence, &#8220;In a victory for President Barack Obama, the Supreme Court upheld his signature health care law&#8217;s individual insurance mandate in a 5-4 decision, upending speculation after hostile-seeming oral arguments in March that the justices would overturn the law. &#8220;</p>
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		<title>
		By: armchair pessimist		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2012/06/28/the-hcr-ruling-theres-a-pony-somewhere/#comment-376108</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[armchair pessimist]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jun 2012 17:40:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=17662#comment-376108</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Wonks, please help me here:

It&#039;s a tax in that if you don&#039;t get insurance you pay a penalty which goes to the government, the idea being that with this stick, the young and healthy and cheap will compensate the insurance companies for having to cover the old, sick and expensive.  So far, so good?

But this tax or penalty is peanuts compared to the cost of buying health insurance, so it&#039;s cheaper to pay the tax and buy insurance only when you already have a medical problem, which the ACA will compel insurance companies to sell you no matter what.

This, as the law stands, is perfectly legal.  But how can it  not have the effect of swiftly bankrupting the insurance companies? Or was that the idea all along? that the govt would have to step in and &quot;rescue&quot; the health system?

So for those who want to nationalize healthcare, their plan is right on schedule.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Wonks, please help me here:</p>
<p>It&#8217;s a tax in that if you don&#8217;t get insurance you pay a penalty which goes to the government, the idea being that with this stick, the young and healthy and cheap will compensate the insurance companies for having to cover the old, sick and expensive.  So far, so good?</p>
<p>But this tax or penalty is peanuts compared to the cost of buying health insurance, so it&#8217;s cheaper to pay the tax and buy insurance only when you already have a medical problem, which the ACA will compel insurance companies to sell you no matter what.</p>
<p>This, as the law stands, is perfectly legal.  But how can it  not have the effect of swiftly bankrupting the insurance companies? Or was that the idea all along? that the govt would have to step in and &#8220;rescue&#8221; the health system?</p>
<p>So for those who want to nationalize healthcare, their plan is right on schedule.</p>
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		<title>
		By: james		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2012/06/28/the-hcr-ruling-theres-a-pony-somewhere/#comment-376102</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[james]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jun 2012 17:35:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=17662#comment-376102</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[To all the &quot;pessimists&quot;, I understand how you feel (yep sucks a big one!), but get up and fight and enjoy the fight. We remain our biggest enemy. This is not the Mongols in the suburbs killing every living thing and coming our way(though that could be quite salutory in some places) we retain many advantages, let&#039;s use them. One observation, I think Roberts has given out a poison pill that the Dems will wish they hadn&#039;t swallowed.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>To all the &#8220;pessimists&#8221;, I understand how you feel (yep sucks a big one!), but get up and fight and enjoy the fight. We remain our biggest enemy. This is not the Mongols in the suburbs killing every living thing and coming our way(though that could be quite salutory in some places) we retain many advantages, let&#8217;s use them. One observation, I think Roberts has given out a poison pill that the Dems will wish they hadn&#8217;t swallowed.</p>
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		<title>
		By: holmes		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2012/06/28/the-hcr-ruling-theres-a-pony-somewhere/#comment-376087</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[holmes]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jun 2012 17:24:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=17662#comment-376087</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I think Roberts made a grand compromise and fell on his sword to limit the commerce clause without wading into politically-determined policy.  This was as close to overturning the mandate and keeping everything in place (best possible outcome) as possible and still side with the 4 liberal justices (they all have to work together again.)  

It&#039;s a victory.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think Roberts made a grand compromise and fell on his sword to limit the commerce clause without wading into politically-determined policy.  This was as close to overturning the mandate and keeping everything in place (best possible outcome) as possible and still side with the 4 liberal justices (they all have to work together again.)  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s a victory.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Parker		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2012/06/28/the-hcr-ruling-theres-a-pony-somewhere/#comment-376063</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Parker]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jun 2012 17:00:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=17662#comment-376063</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I agree that this ridiculous ruling should fire up conservatives, but it is indeed &#039;stinky macaroni&#039;.   Thanks to all of you who are looking for the silver lining on such a dark day.  You&#039;ve lifted my sour mood a bit.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I agree that this ridiculous ruling should fire up conservatives, but it is indeed &#8216;stinky macaroni&#8217;.   Thanks to all of you who are looking for the silver lining on such a dark day.  You&#8217;ve lifted my sour mood a bit.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Mr. Frank		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2012/06/28/the-hcr-ruling-theres-a-pony-somewhere/#comment-376058</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mr. Frank]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 28 Jun 2012 16:54:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=17662#comment-376058</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Why is it that the Supreme Court &quot;swing vote&quot; usually comes from the conservatives? The lefties always hang together, law be damned. Maybe they understand what is at stake.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Why is it that the Supreme Court &#8220;swing vote&#8221; usually comes from the conservatives? The lefties always hang together, law be damned. Maybe they understand what is at stake.</p>
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