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	Comments on: Newt the spoiler	</title>
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	<link>https://thenewneo.com/2012/03/15/newt-the-spoiler-2/</link>
	<description>A blog about political change, among other things</description>
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		<title>
		By: Don Carlos		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2012/03/15/newt-the-spoiler-2/#comment-332528</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Don Carlos]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Mar 2012 16:54:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=14672#comment-332528</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Thanks for good thoughts, UncleFred.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for good thoughts, UncleFred.</p>
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		<title>
		By: foxmarks		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2012/03/15/newt-the-spoiler-2/#comment-332235</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[foxmarks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Mar 2012 23:09:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=14672#comment-332235</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[IGB: I’m in Week 4 of Con101, too. Your characterization of the Founders may be influenced by libertarian mythology. Jefferson is the most quoted, but he was merely one voice at a large table.

Since they contemplated a Federal gov’t that would extend across a continent, that gov’t was never going to be small. What was more important than the size of gov’t was that its power be limited. The primary means of limiting power was dividing that power between many factions, many offices and many persons. All of whom were presumed to embody all the failings of human nature.

Santorum’s moral universe would be well understood by the Founders. They would agree that family was the “atomic unit” of society, and thus deserved some favoritism.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>IGB: I’m in Week 4 of Con101, too. Your characterization of the Founders may be influenced by libertarian mythology. Jefferson is the most quoted, but he was merely one voice at a large table.</p>
<p>Since they contemplated a Federal gov’t that would extend across a continent, that gov’t was never going to be small. What was more important than the size of gov’t was that its power be limited. The primary means of limiting power was dividing that power between many factions, many offices and many persons. All of whom were presumed to embody all the failings of human nature.</p>
<p>Santorum’s moral universe would be well understood by the Founders. They would agree that family was the “atomic unit” of society, and thus deserved some favoritism.</p>
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		<title>
		By: foxmarks		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2012/03/15/newt-the-spoiler-2/#comment-332230</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[foxmarks]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Mar 2012 22:56:45 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=14672#comment-332230</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Delegates are not selected by the candidates, nor by the campaigns. They’re selected by fellow party-members. A loyal party member may be elected to vote as pledged on the first ballot while preferring someone else. On ensuing ballots the delegate can vote their first choice.

If it goes past the first ballot, little is assured. If the candidate makes a deal the delegates don’t accept, they don’t have to follow. If a campaign is shrewd at getting their people elected as delegates, even if pledged to someone else, that campaign will show sudden surprising strength on subsequent ballots.

He who knows the rules and best exploits them, wins.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Delegates are not selected by the candidates, nor by the campaigns. They’re selected by fellow party-members. A loyal party member may be elected to vote as pledged on the first ballot while preferring someone else. On ensuing ballots the delegate can vote their first choice.</p>
<p>If it goes past the first ballot, little is assured. If the candidate makes a deal the delegates don’t accept, they don’t have to follow. If a campaign is shrewd at getting their people elected as delegates, even if pledged to someone else, that campaign will show sudden surprising strength on subsequent ballots.</p>
<p>He who knows the rules and best exploits them, wins.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Curtis		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2012/03/15/newt-the-spoiler-2/#comment-332088</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Curtis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Mar 2012 15:55:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=14672#comment-332088</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I&#039;m sorry, IGB, just read your statement and just haven&#039;t had the time to respond. My first thought, however, would be whether or not the FF agreed with Griswold v Connecticut, Roe v Wade, and the many myriad gun laws of local governments. And again, the focus on the statement is on negative rights, not the government supplying benefits but offering protection from things like, say, campus speech codes.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m sorry, IGB, just read your statement and just haven&#8217;t had the time to respond. My first thought, however, would be whether or not the FF agreed with Griswold v Connecticut, Roe v Wade, and the many myriad gun laws of local governments. And again, the focus on the statement is on negative rights, not the government supplying benefits but offering protection from things like, say, campus speech codes.</p>
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		By: I Got Bupkis, Fomenter of "small-l" libertarianism		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2012/03/15/newt-the-spoiler-2/#comment-332055</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[I Got Bupkis, Fomenter of "small-l" libertarianism]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Mar 2012 14:19:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=14672#comment-332055</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Curtis, I&#039;d like to argue that statement, but you&#039;d have to identify the justifications for it before I&#039;d bother. In general, the FFs were certainly believers in SMALL government, in minimal intrusion, and in government being as localized as possible -- decisions should largely be made at the lowest level of government capable of making them.

There&#039;s no question they were pretty strongly against the sort of thing that Santorum appears to be strong on, which is interference in peoples&#039; private morality.

I&#039;m not totally against Santorum, but he&#039;s probably got the most unappealing downchecks of the three major candidates (Paul is a joke) in contrast to his 
fairly decent upchecks... and as to which check is up or down, that&#039;s another problem. A lot of what he stands for is abhorrent to a wide array of people... and which things those are varies with the group.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Curtis, I&#8217;d like to argue that statement, but you&#8217;d have to identify the justifications for it before I&#8217;d bother. In general, the FFs were certainly believers in SMALL government, in minimal intrusion, and in government being as localized as possible &#8212; decisions should largely be made at the lowest level of government capable of making them.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s no question they were pretty strongly against the sort of thing that Santorum appears to be strong on, which is interference in peoples&#8217; private morality.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not totally against Santorum, but he&#8217;s probably got the most unappealing downchecks of the three major candidates (Paul is a joke) in contrast to his<br />
fairly decent upchecks&#8230; and as to which check is up or down, that&#8217;s another problem. A lot of what he stands for is abhorrent to a wide array of people&#8230; and which things those are varies with the group.</p>
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		<title>
		By: I Got Bupkis, Fomenter of "small-l" libertarianism		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2012/03/15/newt-the-spoiler-2/#comment-332050</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[I Got Bupkis, Fomenter of "small-l" libertarianism]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Mar 2012 14:13:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=14672#comment-332050</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&#062;&#062;&#062; &lt;i&gt;McCain won over Romney, and McCain got stomped by the “won”.&lt;/i&gt;

That was when The Great Big 0 was a blank slate with every little idiot&#039;s aspiration printed on his forehead.

Now President Downgrade is no longer a blank slate --

1) He&#039;s &quot;President Downgrade&quot;
2) He&#039;s the Ephteen Trillion Dollar Man
3) He&#039;s Mr. &quot;ObamaCare At Any Cost&quot;
4) He&#039;s Mr. &quot;Four-a-Gallon gas, No Pipeline For YOU!&quot;
5) He&#039;s Mr. Union Bailout
6) He&#039;s Mr. Solyndra
7) He&#039;s Mr. Libya

...as well as all the other crap very rightfully hung on him.

So the volume of &quot;Anyone but a Republican&quot; (remember when the Dems were crowing about how it would be &lt;i&gt;decades&lt;/i&gt; before the PotUS was again in the hands of a Republican? Tens of &lt;i&gt;weeks&lt;/i&gt;, maybe.) has shrunk massively in comparison to the growth of &quot;Anyone but The One&quot;.

No, what Gingrich wants is both some prominent say in the admin &lt;i&gt;directly&lt;/i&gt;, and possibly some concessions as to what the admin will aim for. Moreover, he may wish to add &quot;Veep&quot; to his professional chops. And that&#039;s why Gingrich is in this, and, like it or not, it&#039;s not an irrational position to aim for.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt;&gt;&gt; <i>McCain won over Romney, and McCain got stomped by the “won”.</i></p>
<p>That was when The Great Big 0 was a blank slate with every little idiot&#8217;s aspiration printed on his forehead.</p>
<p>Now President Downgrade is no longer a blank slate &#8212;</p>
<p>1) He&#8217;s &#8220;President Downgrade&#8221;<br />
2) He&#8217;s the Ephteen Trillion Dollar Man<br />
3) He&#8217;s Mr. &#8220;ObamaCare At Any Cost&#8221;<br />
4) He&#8217;s Mr. &#8220;Four-a-Gallon gas, No Pipeline For YOU!&#8221;<br />
5) He&#8217;s Mr. Union Bailout<br />
6) He&#8217;s Mr. Solyndra<br />
7) He&#8217;s Mr. Libya</p>
<p>&#8230;as well as all the other crap very rightfully hung on him.</p>
<p>So the volume of &#8220;Anyone but a Republican&#8221; (remember when the Dems were crowing about how it would be <i>decades</i> before the PotUS was again in the hands of a Republican? Tens of <i>weeks</i>, maybe.) has shrunk massively in comparison to the growth of &#8220;Anyone but The One&#8221;.</p>
<p>No, what Gingrich wants is both some prominent say in the admin <i>directly</i>, and possibly some concessions as to what the admin will aim for. Moreover, he may wish to add &#8220;Veep&#8221; to his professional chops. And that&#8217;s why Gingrich is in this, and, like it or not, it&#8217;s not an irrational position to aim for.</p>
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		<title>
		By: A.Men		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2012/03/15/newt-the-spoiler-2/#comment-332039</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[A.Men]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Mar 2012 13:09:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=14672#comment-332039</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Get a spine! I want the vetting of Republican candidates to continue! I am not afraid. 

Obama and Hilary went at it for months. Then Hilary folded and knelt before Obama. She took as payment secretary of something. 

Get some cohonas!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Get a spine! I want the vetting of Republican candidates to continue! I am not afraid. </p>
<p>Obama and Hilary went at it for months. Then Hilary folded and knelt before Obama. She took as payment secretary of something. </p>
<p>Get some cohonas!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Curtis		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2012/03/15/newt-the-spoiler-2/#comment-331764</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Curtis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Mar 2012 23:32:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=14672#comment-331764</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[It is week four of the Hillsdale series on the Constitution. Interesting point from Professor of Politics, Kevin Portteus on the Q &#038; A session that the Founders were not libertarians in the sense alot of us perhaps think they were: that government should just leave us alone as long as were not harming anybody. Or in his words &quot;One of the things that the Founding Fathers understood was that in the absence of government, injustice and the violation of people&#039;s rights runs rampant and the idea that if you just somehow leave people alone they will spontaneously come together and solve all their problems, that&#039;s simply beyond human nature.&quot; 

If this idea was accepted, Santorum&#039;s religiosity would be viewed quite differently.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is week four of the Hillsdale series on the Constitution. Interesting point from Professor of Politics, Kevin Portteus on the Q &amp; A session that the Founders were not libertarians in the sense alot of us perhaps think they were: that government should just leave us alone as long as were not harming anybody. Or in his words &#8220;One of the things that the Founding Fathers understood was that in the absence of government, injustice and the violation of people&#8217;s rights runs rampant and the idea that if you just somehow leave people alone they will spontaneously come together and solve all their problems, that&#8217;s simply beyond human nature.&#8221; </p>
<p>If this idea was accepted, Santorum&#8217;s religiosity would be viewed quite differently.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Curtis		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2012/03/15/newt-the-spoiler-2/#comment-331759</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Curtis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Mar 2012 23:14:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=14672#comment-331759</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I like uncleFred&#039;s picture. Much more optimistic. I&#039;m hoping that Santorum and Gingrich will put the country first. I&#039;m reminded of when Nixon lost to Kennedy and for the good of the country did not contest the election. Snobbish Kennedy repaid Nixon by stating Nixon had no class.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I like uncleFred&#8217;s picture. Much more optimistic. I&#8217;m hoping that Santorum and Gingrich will put the country first. I&#8217;m reminded of when Nixon lost to Kennedy and for the good of the country did not contest the election. Snobbish Kennedy repaid Nixon by stating Nixon had no class.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Conrad		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2012/03/15/newt-the-spoiler-2/#comment-331754</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Conrad]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Mar 2012 23:04:22 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=14672#comment-331754</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Good post, unclefred, but I doubt Newt thinks that a brokered convention amounts to a &quot;reset.&quot;  Here&#039;s why:

Delegates aren&#039;t just random Republicans who will be open to a reasoned debate over which candidate should be the nominee.  They are selected by the candidates themselves primarily on the basis of perceived loyalty and dedication.  Newt is crazy if he thinks he&#039;ll have an EASIER time convincing a Romney-selected delegate that he should vote for Newt than convincing a random GOP primary voter in Florida, for example, of the same thing.  

So, it&#039;s not a &quot;reset&quot; at all, at least not in the sense that, after the first ballot, everyone will be completely open to discussion and debate as to who the nominee should be.  

Moreover, even if Mitt is shy of a majority, he still may have well over 1000 delegates, and thus need only a small fraction of converts that Newt would need.  Thus, even if Newt is somewhat more &quot;persuasive&quot; in converting Romney delegates to his camp than Romney is in winning over Newt delegates, Newt may need literally hundreds and hundreds of Romney delegates to convert in order to beat Mitt.  By comparison, Mitt might only need to get 25 each from Paul, Santorum, and Gingrich.  

Another thing: Keep in mind that, Paul excluded, all of the candidates want to do approximately the same things (cut spending, repeal Obamacare, etc.).  The race really isn&#039;t about one candidate&#039;s program vs. another&#039;s.  This is important:  Santorum&#039;s and Gingrich&#039;s argument for why THEY should be the nominee and not Mitt is basically that THEY aren&#039;t phony liars, while Mitt is.  I bring this up because I don&#039;t see how disagreements over a candidate&#039;s personal integrity (or at least sincerity) lend themselves well to compromises over platform planks and the like.  I don&#039;t even think it&#039;s reasonable to think that delegates WHO ARE SELECTED ON THE BASIS OF THEIR LOYALTY TO A CANDIDATE are going to &quot;debate&quot; whether Mitt Romney is sufficiently honest to be the nominee.  

In short, I just don&#039;t think, given the dynamics of this race, that the resolution of any impasse at the convention is going to involve individual delegates engaging in a free and uninhibited dialogue over the candidates&#039; relative merits.

What WOULD happen, IMO is that the candidates themselves would work something out, with Romney winding up as the nominee.  He could cut a deal with Paul or with Santorum or possibly Newt, that would result in the other candidates&#039; arranging for his slate of delegates to support Mitt.  So it WOULD, in fact, be a behind-the-scenese, smoky-room deal, not an open process of debate and arggument.  M ore likely, however, any such dealmaking  will have already taken place BEFORE the convention starts.  Newt therefore wouldn&#039;t have the luxury of trying to hold Mitt over the barrel at the convention, while trying to start the &quot;reset caucus&quot; you describe.  Romney will have already offered to make Rand Paul or Rick Santorum VP before that ever unfolds.

Anyway, just my opinion.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Good post, unclefred, but I doubt Newt thinks that a brokered convention amounts to a &#8220;reset.&#8221;  Here&#8217;s why:</p>
<p>Delegates aren&#8217;t just random Republicans who will be open to a reasoned debate over which candidate should be the nominee.  They are selected by the candidates themselves primarily on the basis of perceived loyalty and dedication.  Newt is crazy if he thinks he&#8217;ll have an EASIER time convincing a Romney-selected delegate that he should vote for Newt than convincing a random GOP primary voter in Florida, for example, of the same thing.  </p>
<p>So, it&#8217;s not a &#8220;reset&#8221; at all, at least not in the sense that, after the first ballot, everyone will be completely open to discussion and debate as to who the nominee should be.  </p>
<p>Moreover, even if Mitt is shy of a majority, he still may have well over 1000 delegates, and thus need only a small fraction of converts that Newt would need.  Thus, even if Newt is somewhat more &#8220;persuasive&#8221; in converting Romney delegates to his camp than Romney is in winning over Newt delegates, Newt may need literally hundreds and hundreds of Romney delegates to convert in order to beat Mitt.  By comparison, Mitt might only need to get 25 each from Paul, Santorum, and Gingrich.  </p>
<p>Another thing: Keep in mind that, Paul excluded, all of the candidates want to do approximately the same things (cut spending, repeal Obamacare, etc.).  The race really isn&#8217;t about one candidate&#8217;s program vs. another&#8217;s.  This is important:  Santorum&#8217;s and Gingrich&#8217;s argument for why THEY should be the nominee and not Mitt is basically that THEY aren&#8217;t phony liars, while Mitt is.  I bring this up because I don&#8217;t see how disagreements over a candidate&#8217;s personal integrity (or at least sincerity) lend themselves well to compromises over platform planks and the like.  I don&#8217;t even think it&#8217;s reasonable to think that delegates WHO ARE SELECTED ON THE BASIS OF THEIR LOYALTY TO A CANDIDATE are going to &#8220;debate&#8221; whether Mitt Romney is sufficiently honest to be the nominee.  </p>
<p>In short, I just don&#8217;t think, given the dynamics of this race, that the resolution of any impasse at the convention is going to involve individual delegates engaging in a free and uninhibited dialogue over the candidates&#8217; relative merits.</p>
<p>What WOULD happen, IMO is that the candidates themselves would work something out, with Romney winding up as the nominee.  He could cut a deal with Paul or with Santorum or possibly Newt, that would result in the other candidates&#8217; arranging for his slate of delegates to support Mitt.  So it WOULD, in fact, be a behind-the-scenese, smoky-room deal, not an open process of debate and arggument.  M ore likely, however, any such dealmaking  will have already taken place BEFORE the convention starts.  Newt therefore wouldn&#8217;t have the luxury of trying to hold Mitt over the barrel at the convention, while trying to start the &#8220;reset caucus&#8221; you describe.  Romney will have already offered to make Rand Paul or Rick Santorum VP before that ever unfolds.</p>
<p>Anyway, just my opinion.</p>
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