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	<title>
	Comments on: The church, contraception coverage, and Obama	</title>
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	<link>https://thenewneo.com/2012/02/09/the-church-contraception-coverage-and-obama/</link>
	<description>A blog about political change, among other things</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 11 Feb 2012 23:48:05 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Doug Indeap		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2012/02/09/the-church-contraception-coverage-and-obama/#comment-316216</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Doug Indeap]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 11 Feb 2012 23:48:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=13767#comment-316216</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Arguments for a &quot;religious employer&quot; exemption have gone from wrong to ridiculous. 

Those demanding such an exemption initially worked themselves into a lather with the false claim that the law forced employers to provide their employees with health care plans offering services the employers considered immoral.  The fact is that employers have the option of not providing any such plans and instead simply paying assessments to the government.  Unless one supposes that the employers&#039; religion forbids payments of money to the government (all of us should enjoy such a religion), then the law&#039;s requirement to pay assessments does not compel those employers to act contrary to their beliefs.  Problem solved--except perhaps for an employer who really desires not just to avoid a moral bind, but rather wants to retain control of his employees&#039; health plans, limit their choices to conform to the employer&#039;s religious beliefs, and avoid paying the assessments that otherwise would be owed.  For that, an employer would need an exemption from the law.

Indeed, some continued clamoring for just such an exemption, complaining that by paying assessments they would be paying for the very things they opposed.  They seemingly missed that that is not a moral dilemma justifying an exemption to avoid being forced to act contrary to one&#039;s beliefs, but rather is a gripe common to most taxpayers--who don&#039;t much like paying taxes and who object to this or that action the government may take with the benefit of their tax dollars.  Should each of us be exempted from paying our taxes so we aren&#039;t thereby &quot;forced&quot; to pay for a war, health care, or whatever else the government does that each of us may consider wrong or even immoral?

In any event, they put up enough of a stink that the government relented and announced that religious employers would be free to provide health plans with provisions to their liking and not be required to pay the assessments otherwise required.  Problem solved--again, even more.

Nonetheless, some continue to complain.  They fret that somehow religious employers ultimately will pay for the services they oppose.  They argue that if insurers (or, by the same logic, anyone, e.g., employees) pay for such services, those costs will somehow, someday be passed on to the employers in the form of demands for higher insurance premiums or higher wages.  They counter what they call the government&#039;s &quot;accounting gimmick&quot; with one of their own:  the &quot;Catholic dollar.&quot;  These dollars, once paid by a religious employer to others, e.g., insurers or employees, should be used only for things the religious employer would approve.  The religious employers&#039; aim, we are assured, is not to control the actions of others, oh no, but rather is merely to assure that the employers themselves have not somehow acted contrary to their own beliefs by loosing &quot;their&quot; dollars into hands that would use them for things no self-respecting religious employer would himself buy.  Their religious liberty, they say, requires not only that they be exempted from the law, but further that anyone to whom they pay money also be exempted and thus &quot;free&quot; to act according to their desires.

I wonder what they would say if they knew they had some of my &quot;atheist dollars&quot; in their wallets that can be used only for ungodly purposes, lest I suffer the indignity of paying for things I disbelieve.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Arguments for a &#8220;religious employer&#8221; exemption have gone from wrong to ridiculous. </p>
<p>Those demanding such an exemption initially worked themselves into a lather with the false claim that the law forced employers to provide their employees with health care plans offering services the employers considered immoral.  The fact is that employers have the option of not providing any such plans and instead simply paying assessments to the government.  Unless one supposes that the employers&#8217; religion forbids payments of money to the government (all of us should enjoy such a religion), then the law&#8217;s requirement to pay assessments does not compel those employers to act contrary to their beliefs.  Problem solved&#8211;except perhaps for an employer who really desires not just to avoid a moral bind, but rather wants to retain control of his employees&#8217; health plans, limit their choices to conform to the employer&#8217;s religious beliefs, and avoid paying the assessments that otherwise would be owed.  For that, an employer would need an exemption from the law.</p>
<p>Indeed, some continued clamoring for just such an exemption, complaining that by paying assessments they would be paying for the very things they opposed.  They seemingly missed that that is not a moral dilemma justifying an exemption to avoid being forced to act contrary to one&#8217;s beliefs, but rather is a gripe common to most taxpayers&#8211;who don&#8217;t much like paying taxes and who object to this or that action the government may take with the benefit of their tax dollars.  Should each of us be exempted from paying our taxes so we aren&#8217;t thereby &#8220;forced&#8221; to pay for a war, health care, or whatever else the government does that each of us may consider wrong or even immoral?</p>
<p>In any event, they put up enough of a stink that the government relented and announced that religious employers would be free to provide health plans with provisions to their liking and not be required to pay the assessments otherwise required.  Problem solved&#8211;again, even more.</p>
<p>Nonetheless, some continue to complain.  They fret that somehow religious employers ultimately will pay for the services they oppose.  They argue that if insurers (or, by the same logic, anyone, e.g., employees) pay for such services, those costs will somehow, someday be passed on to the employers in the form of demands for higher insurance premiums or higher wages.  They counter what they call the government&#8217;s &#8220;accounting gimmick&#8221; with one of their own:  the &#8220;Catholic dollar.&#8221;  These dollars, once paid by a religious employer to others, e.g., insurers or employees, should be used only for things the religious employer would approve.  The religious employers&#8217; aim, we are assured, is not to control the actions of others, oh no, but rather is merely to assure that the employers themselves have not somehow acted contrary to their own beliefs by loosing &#8220;their&#8221; dollars into hands that would use them for things no self-respecting religious employer would himself buy.  Their religious liberty, they say, requires not only that they be exempted from the law, but further that anyone to whom they pay money also be exempted and thus &#8220;free&#8221; to act according to their desires.</p>
<p>I wonder what they would say if they knew they had some of my &#8220;atheist dollars&#8221; in their wallets that can be used only for ungodly purposes, lest I suffer the indignity of paying for things I disbelieve.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Curtis		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2012/02/09/the-church-contraception-coverage-and-obama/#comment-315599</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Curtis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 18:35:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=13767#comment-315599</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Here comes what the stranger than strange people intend for those of us who think they are stranger than strange:

Some diagnoses - for conditions like &quot;oppositional defiant disorder&quot; and &quot;apathy syndrome&quot; - risk devaluing the seriousness of mental illness and medicalising behaviors most people would consider normal or just mildly eccentric, the experts said.

 http://tinyurl.com/7q5sy72]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Here comes what the stranger than strange people intend for those of us who think they are stranger than strange:</p>
<p>Some diagnoses &#8211; for conditions like &#8220;oppositional defiant disorder&#8221; and &#8220;apathy syndrome&#8221; &#8211; risk devaluing the seriousness of mental illness and medicalising behaviors most people would consider normal or just mildly eccentric, the experts said.</p>
<p> <a href="http://tinyurl.com/7q5sy72" rel="nofollow ugc">http://tinyurl.com/7q5sy72</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: Curtis		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2012/02/09/the-church-contraception-coverage-and-obama/#comment-315592</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Curtis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 18:18:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=13767#comment-315592</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[As a matter of strategy, Obama gave up something he knew he could never get for something he would have to battle for. The idea of that there should be a policy of funding abortions to which &quot;exemptions&quot; can be granted is a win for Obama.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As a matter of strategy, Obama gave up something he knew he could never get for something he would have to battle for. The idea of that there should be a policy of funding abortions to which &#8220;exemptions&#8221; can be granted is a win for Obama.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Mr. Frank		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2012/02/09/the-church-contraception-coverage-and-obama/#comment-315585</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Mr. Frank]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:58:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=13767#comment-315585</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[As I predicted last night, Obama is already trying to walk back from his huge mistake. He says that religious organizations will not have to offer coverage for services they have moral objections to. He said that the insurance companies will have to offer the services in question for &quot;free.&quot; 

We all know that free for a liberal means somebody else has to pay for it. In this case the insurance companies will have to raise their rates which means the religious organization will be paying for the services that are &quot;free.&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>As I predicted last night, Obama is already trying to walk back from his huge mistake. He says that religious organizations will not have to offer coverage for services they have moral objections to. He said that the insurance companies will have to offer the services in question for &#8220;free.&#8221; </p>
<p>We all know that free for a liberal means somebody else has to pay for it. In this case the insurance companies will have to raise their rates which means the religious organization will be paying for the services that are &#8220;free.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Occam's Beard		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2012/02/09/the-church-contraception-coverage-and-obama/#comment-315583</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Occam's Beard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:57:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=13767#comment-315583</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;blockquote&gt;The question, then, is whether, as a matter of grace, some employers should be given an exemption in order to relieve them of being forced to take actions contrary to their religious beliefs.&lt;/blockquote&gt;

So ... uh ... yesterday that was a &quot;no,&quot; but today that would be a &quot;yes.&quot; Apparenty Soros changed his mind.

Obama has &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.cnn.com/2012/02/10/politics/contraception-controversy/index.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;caved.&lt;/a&gt;

&quot;The administration will expand the religious exemption for religiously affiliated universities and hospitals, the source said.&quot;

Shades of Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact, eh?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<blockquote><p>The question, then, is whether, as a matter of grace, some employers should be given an exemption in order to relieve them of being forced to take actions contrary to their religious beliefs.</p></blockquote>
<p>So &#8230; uh &#8230; yesterday that was a &#8220;no,&#8221; but today that would be a &#8220;yes.&#8221; Apparenty Soros changed his mind.</p>
<p>Obama has <a href="http://www.cnn.com/2012/02/10/politics/contraception-controversy/index.html" rel="nofollow">caved.</a></p>
<p>&#8220;The administration will expand the religious exemption for religiously affiliated universities and hospitals, the source said.&#8221;</p>
<p>Shades of Ribbentrop-Molotov Pact, eh?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Curtis		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2012/02/09/the-church-contraception-coverage-and-obama/#comment-315580</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Curtis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:37:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=13767#comment-315580</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Point of clarification: Don&#039;t waste your time arguing directly with Doug, but, of course, your point is a good one, uncleFred. Didn&#039;t mean to be presumptive or dismissive of your thoughts.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Point of clarification: Don&#8217;t waste your time arguing directly with Doug, but, of course, your point is a good one, uncleFred. Didn&#8217;t mean to be presumptive or dismissive of your thoughts.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Occam's Beard		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2012/02/09/the-church-contraception-coverage-and-obama/#comment-315577</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Occam's Beard]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 17:16:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=13767#comment-315577</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;The question, then, is whether, as a matter of grace, some employers should be given an exemption in order to relieve them of being forced to take actions contrary to their religious beliefs.&lt;/i&gt;

But employers should be given an exemption in order to relieve them of being forced to take actions contrary to their financial beliefs, if they have donated heavily to the &lt;a href=&quot;http://cciio.cms.gov/resources/files/approved_applications_for_waiver.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Democrat Party.&lt;/a&gt;

In addition to 722 self-insured employers, 417 multi-employer plans (for unions) and 34 non-Taft-Hartley union plans. The list includes such worthies as 

&lt;i&gt;United Federation of Teachers Welfare Fund
Teamsters Local 522 Welfare Fund Roofers Division 
1199 SEIU Licensed Practical Nurses Welfare Fund 
SEIU Local 300 Civil Service Forum Employees Welfare Fund 
IBEW Local 3 NYC Electrical Division Health &#038; Welfare Fund 
New York City SEIU Local 246 Welfare Benefits Fund 
ASEA/AFSCME Local 52 Health Benefits Trust 
Local 25 SEIU 
1199 SEIU Greater New York Benefit Fund 
Teamsters Local 210 Affiliated Health and Insurance Fund &lt;/i&gt;

I believe we were discussing exemptions...

Looks like the Pope didn&#039;t pony up, eh? &lt;i&gt;That&lt;/i&gt; much is established.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>The question, then, is whether, as a matter of grace, some employers should be given an exemption in order to relieve them of being forced to take actions contrary to their religious beliefs.</i></p>
<p>But employers should be given an exemption in order to relieve them of being forced to take actions contrary to their financial beliefs, if they have donated heavily to the <a href="http://cciio.cms.gov/resources/files/approved_applications_for_waiver.html" rel="nofollow">Democrat Party.</a></p>
<p>In addition to 722 self-insured employers, 417 multi-employer plans (for unions) and 34 non-Taft-Hartley union plans. The list includes such worthies as </p>
<p><i>United Federation of Teachers Welfare Fund<br />
Teamsters Local 522 Welfare Fund Roofers Division<br />
1199 SEIU Licensed Practical Nurses Welfare Fund<br />
SEIU Local 300 Civil Service Forum Employees Welfare Fund<br />
IBEW Local 3 NYC Electrical Division Health &amp; Welfare Fund<br />
New York City SEIU Local 246 Welfare Benefits Fund<br />
ASEA/AFSCME Local 52 Health Benefits Trust<br />
Local 25 SEIU<br />
1199 SEIU Greater New York Benefit Fund<br />
Teamsters Local 210 Affiliated Health and Insurance Fund </i></p>
<p>I believe we were discussing exemptions&#8230;</p>
<p>Looks like the Pope didn&#8217;t pony up, eh? <i>That</i> much is established.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Curtis		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2012/02/09/the-church-contraception-coverage-and-obama/#comment-315562</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Curtis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 16:32:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=13767#comment-315562</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Don&#039;t waste your breath, time, or energy uncleFred. Doug is a good example of &quot;stranger than we can think.&quot; Doug&#039;s postmodern thought process is always directed by his superiors who have taught him that any power or authority by an institution of the West (RCC, constitutional gov&#039;t) is bad, but the authority of an Hegelian state- complete with it&#039;s ability to morph into any type of creature--is good. The idea of a constitution that transcends time and culture and relying on natural law declared by a Sovereign power outside of nature and time cannot be allowed because that allows for a Sovereign other than man.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Don&#8217;t waste your breath, time, or energy uncleFred. Doug is a good example of &#8220;stranger than we can think.&#8221; Doug&#8217;s postmodern thought process is always directed by his superiors who have taught him that any power or authority by an institution of the West (RCC, constitutional gov&#8217;t) is bad, but the authority of an Hegelian state- complete with it&#8217;s ability to morph into any type of creature&#8211;is good. The idea of a constitution that transcends time and culture and relying on natural law declared by a Sovereign power outside of nature and time cannot be allowed because that allows for a Sovereign other than man.</p>
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		<title>
		By: uncleFred		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2012/02/09/the-church-contraception-coverage-and-obama/#comment-315558</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[uncleFred]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 16:15:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=13767#comment-315558</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[@Doug,
&quot;So, as the health law establishes a requirement generally applicable to all employers, that law is within the government’s constitutional powers. That much is established.&quot;

Actually it is not established. You see the penalty that the government charges for non-compliance is a fee or tax to offset government costs. Once you open the door to taxing a religious institution, you are deep in the middle of the first amendment. Were there no financial penalty there would be other issues to litigate, but the penalty amounts to taxing a church which is beyond the power of the state.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@Doug,<br />
&#8220;So, as the health law establishes a requirement generally applicable to all employers, that law is within the government’s constitutional powers. That much is established.&#8221;</p>
<p>Actually it is not established. You see the penalty that the government charges for non-compliance is a fee or tax to offset government costs. Once you open the door to taxing a religious institution, you are deep in the middle of the first amendment. Were there no financial penalty there would be other issues to litigate, but the penalty amounts to taxing a church which is beyond the power of the state.</p>
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		<title>
		By: FenelonSpoke		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2012/02/09/the-church-contraception-coverage-and-obama/#comment-315555</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[FenelonSpoke]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 10 Feb 2012 16:05:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=13767#comment-315555</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Some people will never get it. I have a dear friend of 40 years standing who only ever watches CNN or reads &quot;Time&quot; or the NYT and I&#039;m almost positive voted for Obama although I never actually asked her because I didn&#039;t really want to know. I discussed my objections to Obama throughout 2008 and before the election. I just had coffee with her and explained my objections as a clergyperson-not RC-to the mandate on the RC church. She said, &quot;I&#039;m sure Obama is not out to hurt the church&quot; and can see no reason why the church shouldn&#039;t be forced to pay for contraception and abortion inducing drugs. She doesn&#039;t get the point that this is a much bigger issue about religious freedom and freedom in general. I have never been mad at her in my life;  I finally said &quot;I know far more about Obama than you do. I love you but I&#039;m leaving now.&quot; At this point I have no intention of calling her and apologizing although I suppose I will at some point. It is unbelievable to me how deluded some otherwise intelligent people are. If I even, &quot;You have no idea how bad things will get if he gets another term&quot;  she looks at me like I&#039;m crazy. Unfortunately, all my friends without exception are liberals. The only support I get are from my own immediate family and going on political blogs like this. Thanks for this safe place, neo.

P.S. She had no idea who Dietrich Bonhoeffer was and didn&#039;t understand the parallels with this issue and  the &quot;Confessing Church&quot; In Germany.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some people will never get it. I have a dear friend of 40 years standing who only ever watches CNN or reads &#8220;Time&#8221; or the NYT and I&#8217;m almost positive voted for Obama although I never actually asked her because I didn&#8217;t really want to know. I discussed my objections to Obama throughout 2008 and before the election. I just had coffee with her and explained my objections as a clergyperson-not RC-to the mandate on the RC church. She said, &#8220;I&#8217;m sure Obama is not out to hurt the church&#8221; and can see no reason why the church shouldn&#8217;t be forced to pay for contraception and abortion inducing drugs. She doesn&#8217;t get the point that this is a much bigger issue about religious freedom and freedom in general. I have never been mad at her in my life;  I finally said &#8220;I know far more about Obama than you do. I love you but I&#8217;m leaving now.&#8221; At this point I have no intention of calling her and apologizing although I suppose I will at some point. It is unbelievable to me how deluded some otherwise intelligent people are. If I even, &#8220;You have no idea how bad things will get if he gets another term&#8221;  she looks at me like I&#8217;m crazy. Unfortunately, all my friends without exception are liberals. The only support I get are from my own immediate family and going on political blogs like this. Thanks for this safe place, neo.</p>
<p>P.S. She had no idea who Dietrich Bonhoeffer was and didn&#8217;t understand the parallels with this issue and  the &#8220;Confessing Church&#8221; In Germany.</p>
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