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	Comments on: New presidential polls	</title>
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	<link>https://thenewneo.com/2011/09/06/new-presidential-polls/</link>
	<description>A blog about political change, among other things</description>
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		<title>
		By: SteveH		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2011/09/06/new-presidential-polls/#comment-265717</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[SteveH]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Sep 2011 12:11:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=9342#comment-265717</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Kolnai, the DUGRO exist because the media has successfully inserted the peer pressure dynamic of fashion into politics. Which sets up the political landscape to make Obama be viewed as the latest cool lip ring while a republican is a Members Only jacket.

 It all increasingly has nothing to do with success or failure of policies of the two sides. And has everything to do with tapping into people&#039;s need to fit in with what is said to be fashionable.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Kolnai, the DUGRO exist because the media has successfully inserted the peer pressure dynamic of fashion into politics. Which sets up the political landscape to make Obama be viewed as the latest cool lip ring while a republican is a Members Only jacket.</p>
<p> It all increasingly has nothing to do with success or failure of policies of the two sides. And has everything to do with tapping into people&#8217;s need to fit in with what is said to be fashionable.</p>
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		<title>
		By: kolnai		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2011/09/06/new-presidential-polls/#comment-265663</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[kolnai]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Sep 2011 05:39:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=9342#comment-265663</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[neo-

1)  Yes, many conservatives have litmus tests.  But ask yourself: if McCain was president right now, what would his approval rating be?  I can&#039;t believe it would be as high as 44%.  Not because of conservative purists, but because more people are more willing to &quot;give up on&quot; a Republican than on a tender-hearted Democrat.  The crucial difference is not made up of disillusioned purist conservatives.  Rather, it&#039;s made up of those who self-identify as &quot;conservative&quot; but are actually liberals or Democrats, of whom there are very many indeed - 

e.g., Pennsylvania, which is fully 38% &quot;conservative&quot; and all of 19% liberal, but 40% Republican and 46% Democratic; 

or California which splits 33%/24% conservative/liberal, but 33%/47% Republican/Democrat; 

or Illinois, which breaks down, respectively, 36%/22% to 35%/48%... 

All told, there is not a single state where self-identified liberals outnumber conservatives while Republicans outnumber Democrats, but there are 29 states where the reverse holds.  In fact, there is only one domain in the entire U.S. where self-identified liberals outnumber conservatives - Washington D.C.

There are two ways to interpret this oddness.  First, it pleases most (actual) conservatives to see it as revealing a silent majority of people with conservative values.  Second, it could mean that most people are DUGROs (Democrats Until Given Reason Otherwise).  I think the latter view is more correct today, or rather, I think that regardless of whether a majority claim to have personal values that lean conservative, a majority also brings an a priori &quot;lean Democrat&quot; presumption to the voting booth.  

I emphasize the DUGRO interpretation when I write because it&#039;s the one that matters - the one, that is, that sets the height of the mountain every national conservative candidate has to scale in order to win.      

2)  Side note: Tim Groseclose&#039;s new book on media bias lends my view some support.  He argues that the media is directly responsible for 8-10 percentage points of the national Democratic vote; in other words, no media bias, no Obama presidency, and given an Obama presidency, around a 35% approval rating right now, which is where my gut tells me it should be.  DUGRO-ism is directly attributable to media effects.     

3)  Contrast Obama&#039;s situation with Bush&#039;s.  According to some polls, Bush was getting down to the present Obama-range before 9/11, and the economy was pretty good at the time (e.g., a Zogby poll in August 2001 had him around 47%; a Harris poll in March 2001 had him around 48%).  

Granted, the low-ballers were outliers, but no poll had him higher than 60% roughly between July and September 11, 2001.  The point being that nothing really happened until 9/11 except passing NCLB and tax cuts.    

As soon as actual bad stuff began to happen, his approval ratings plummeted about 20 percentage points in a single year, STARTING from 50% approval in mid-2006.  My argument boils down to this: No Democratic president could go that low in approval rating without a catastrophe we can barely imagine.  

I&#039;d wager that if unemployment is the same at this time next year, and even if we&#039;re in a double-dip recession, Obama&#039;s approval rating will at no time average 30% or lower, as Bush&#039;s began to do in 2007.  He will hover around 40% at worst, because the people, as it were, are biased about 10 percentage points in favor of indulging Democrats.  

Again, imagine if, absent 9/11, at this point in Bush&#039;s first term our national credit rating was downgraded, or he had rammed through, say, a privatization of Social Security on a party-line vote.  Always when considering counterfactuals like this we have to take into account the pure rate of disapproval PLUS the amount added by media bias, which I think Groseclose shows convincingly is a huge.  Best guess: 45%-10 percentage points.  That gives majority influence to DUGRO&#039;s.           

4) Looping back to the litmus test issue, I&#039;m not sure why you think ideological intransigence is a problem worth mentioning on the right.  It&#039;s not like we&#039;ve been nominating conservatives for the past twenty years, and most purists wind up voting for the nominee.  Even Romney, God help us, is doing rather well in GOP polls.  

So, while it is true that no one is pure enough for some people, that doesn&#039;t explain the general indulgence for Democrats by comparison to Republicans.  That, I maintain, is due to the DUGROs.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>neo-</p>
<p>1)  Yes, many conservatives have litmus tests.  But ask yourself: if McCain was president right now, what would his approval rating be?  I can&#8217;t believe it would be as high as 44%.  Not because of conservative purists, but because more people are more willing to &#8220;give up on&#8221; a Republican than on a tender-hearted Democrat.  The crucial difference is not made up of disillusioned purist conservatives.  Rather, it&#8217;s made up of those who self-identify as &#8220;conservative&#8221; but are actually liberals or Democrats, of whom there are very many indeed &#8211; </p>
<p>e.g., Pennsylvania, which is fully 38% &#8220;conservative&#8221; and all of 19% liberal, but 40% Republican and 46% Democratic; </p>
<p>or California which splits 33%/24% conservative/liberal, but 33%/47% Republican/Democrat; </p>
<p>or Illinois, which breaks down, respectively, 36%/22% to 35%/48%&#8230; </p>
<p>All told, there is not a single state where self-identified liberals outnumber conservatives while Republicans outnumber Democrats, but there are 29 states where the reverse holds.  In fact, there is only one domain in the entire U.S. where self-identified liberals outnumber conservatives &#8211; Washington D.C.</p>
<p>There are two ways to interpret this oddness.  First, it pleases most (actual) conservatives to see it as revealing a silent majority of people with conservative values.  Second, it could mean that most people are DUGROs (Democrats Until Given Reason Otherwise).  I think the latter view is more correct today, or rather, I think that regardless of whether a majority claim to have personal values that lean conservative, a majority also brings an a priori &#8220;lean Democrat&#8221; presumption to the voting booth.  </p>
<p>I emphasize the DUGRO interpretation when I write because it&#8217;s the one that matters &#8211; the one, that is, that sets the height of the mountain every national conservative candidate has to scale in order to win.      </p>
<p>2)  Side note: Tim Groseclose&#8217;s new book on media bias lends my view some support.  He argues that the media is directly responsible for 8-10 percentage points of the national Democratic vote; in other words, no media bias, no Obama presidency, and given an Obama presidency, around a 35% approval rating right now, which is where my gut tells me it should be.  DUGRO-ism is directly attributable to media effects.     </p>
<p>3)  Contrast Obama&#8217;s situation with Bush&#8217;s.  According to some polls, Bush was getting down to the present Obama-range before 9/11, and the economy was pretty good at the time (e.g., a Zogby poll in August 2001 had him around 47%; a Harris poll in March 2001 had him around 48%).  </p>
<p>Granted, the low-ballers were outliers, but no poll had him higher than 60% roughly between July and September 11, 2001.  The point being that nothing really happened until 9/11 except passing NCLB and tax cuts.    </p>
<p>As soon as actual bad stuff began to happen, his approval ratings plummeted about 20 percentage points in a single year, STARTING from 50% approval in mid-2006.  My argument boils down to this: No Democratic president could go that low in approval rating without a catastrophe we can barely imagine.  </p>
<p>I&#8217;d wager that if unemployment is the same at this time next year, and even if we&#8217;re in a double-dip recession, Obama&#8217;s approval rating will at no time average 30% or lower, as Bush&#8217;s began to do in 2007.  He will hover around 40% at worst, because the people, as it were, are biased about 10 percentage points in favor of indulging Democrats.  </p>
<p>Again, imagine if, absent 9/11, at this point in Bush&#8217;s first term our national credit rating was downgraded, or he had rammed through, say, a privatization of Social Security on a party-line vote.  Always when considering counterfactuals like this we have to take into account the pure rate of disapproval PLUS the amount added by media bias, which I think Groseclose shows convincingly is a huge.  Best guess: 45%-10 percentage points.  That gives majority influence to DUGRO&#8217;s.           </p>
<p>4) Looping back to the litmus test issue, I&#8217;m not sure why you think ideological intransigence is a problem worth mentioning on the right.  It&#8217;s not like we&#8217;ve been nominating conservatives for the past twenty years, and most purists wind up voting for the nominee.  Even Romney, God help us, is doing rather well in GOP polls.  </p>
<p>So, while it is true that no one is pure enough for some people, that doesn&#8217;t explain the general indulgence for Democrats by comparison to Republicans.  That, I maintain, is due to the DUGROs.</p>
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		<title>
		By: gatorbait51		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2011/09/06/new-presidential-polls/#comment-265658</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[gatorbait51]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Sep 2011 05:18:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=9342#comment-265658</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Yanno, I think the question about approving of Obama as a person is a thinly veiled  way of saying&quot; If you don&#039;t approve of Teleprompter Jesus as a person, you&#039;re a hateful bigot &quot;

Okay, I don&#039;t approve of Obama at all, he&#039;s a weak, narcissistic, dishonest, cowardly, vicious , untrustworthy, race baiting  miserable excuse for a human being. And that&#039;s his good qualities]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yanno, I think the question about approving of Obama as a person is a thinly veiled  way of saying&#8221; If you don&#8217;t approve of Teleprompter Jesus as a person, you&#8217;re a hateful bigot &#8221;</p>
<p>Okay, I don&#8217;t approve of Obama at all, he&#8217;s a weak, narcissistic, dishonest, cowardly, vicious , untrustworthy, race baiting  miserable excuse for a human being. And that&#8217;s his good qualities</p>
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		By: Rickbert		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2011/09/06/new-presidential-polls/#comment-265621</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Rickbert]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Sep 2011 00:38:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=9342#comment-265621</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[1. The Press liked McCain until he won the primary, then turned on him.  They&#039;d like to be able to do the same with Romney.

2. When a President is popular, polls pretty much always have a higher percentage of respondents claiming they voted for him than was the case.  When unpopular, the reverse is true.  The same goes for political self-identification in reference to which party controls congress and whether it&#039;s doing well or badly in the polls.

3. Given the perceived failure of measures aimed at helping the economy and the failure to even produce any serious attempt to reduce the deficit (which would help the economy in its own right), I&#039;m startled it&#039;s only 56/38.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>1. The Press liked McCain until he won the primary, then turned on him.  They&#8217;d like to be able to do the same with Romney.</p>
<p>2. When a President is popular, polls pretty much always have a higher percentage of respondents claiming they voted for him than was the case.  When unpopular, the reverse is true.  The same goes for political self-identification in reference to which party controls congress and whether it&#8217;s doing well or badly in the polls.</p>
<p>3. Given the perceived failure of measures aimed at helping the economy and the failure to even produce any serious attempt to reduce the deficit (which would help the economy in its own right), I&#8217;m startled it&#8217;s only 56/38.</p>
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		By: Curtis		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2011/09/06/new-presidential-polls/#comment-265619</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Curtis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Sep 2011 00:18:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=9342#comment-265619</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[That is a very good point, SteveH. Just the other day I was talking to a Jamaican and after I said the phrase &quot;black history&quot; I felt very uncomfortable because I used the adjective &quot;black&quot; more like the phrase &quot;demonic.&quot; I believe my face actually flushed red. The Jamaican took no offense.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That is a very good point, SteveH. Just the other day I was talking to a Jamaican and after I said the phrase &#8220;black history&#8221; I felt very uncomfortable because I used the adjective &#8220;black&#8221; more like the phrase &#8220;demonic.&#8221; I believe my face actually flushed red. The Jamaican took no offense.</p>
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		<title>
		By: SteveH		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2011/09/06/new-presidential-polls/#comment-265617</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[SteveH]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 07 Sep 2011 00:09:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=9342#comment-265617</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Curtis, it&#039;s the race issue and all the eggshell walking political correctness has instilled in people. They don&#039;t know how to be critical of a black man who is terrible at his job. Which is rather racist or something close to it when you dissect how they came to viewing him so differently simply because of the color of his skin.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Curtis, it&#8217;s the race issue and all the eggshell walking political correctness has instilled in people. They don&#8217;t know how to be critical of a black man who is terrible at his job. Which is rather racist or something close to it when you dissect how they came to viewing him so differently simply because of the color of his skin.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Curtis		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2011/09/06/new-presidential-polls/#comment-265601</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Curtis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Sep 2011 23:43:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=9342#comment-265601</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I heartily concur J.J. Just a couple phrases come to mind: &quot;throw under the bus&quot; and &quot;Alice Palmer.&quot; 

On the general subject of the public&#039;s view of Obama: I&#039;ve got to think there is some sort of warpage going on, some kind of right brain not talking to left brain or discontinuity or hypnosis, magical loving, emotionalism, I don&#039;t whatism, but something is not right. The polls or wrong and I don&#039;t know why they are wrong except for that they are not going to be how the people vote!

A clue might be given by the race for Weiner&#039;s seat. Who would believe that Turner had a chance? But, there&#039;s been hard work and education going on, and the result is that the race is even. This is what happened in Wisconsin as well. 

I&#039;m thinking of Sergey&#039;s quote that our nation is in a schizophrenic mode. One way here, another way there. Talk to me on the phone about Obama and I like him, but when I go into the booth on my own, it will be a different story.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I heartily concur J.J. Just a couple phrases come to mind: &#8220;throw under the bus&#8221; and &#8220;Alice Palmer.&#8221; </p>
<p>On the general subject of the public&#8217;s view of Obama: I&#8217;ve got to think there is some sort of warpage going on, some kind of right brain not talking to left brain or discontinuity or hypnosis, magical loving, emotionalism, I don&#8217;t whatism, but something is not right. The polls or wrong and I don&#8217;t know why they are wrong except for that they are not going to be how the people vote!</p>
<p>A clue might be given by the race for Weiner&#8217;s seat. Who would believe that Turner had a chance? But, there&#8217;s been hard work and education going on, and the result is that the race is even. This is what happened in Wisconsin as well. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m thinking of Sergey&#8217;s quote that our nation is in a schizophrenic mode. One way here, another way there. Talk to me on the phone about Obama and I like him, but when I go into the booth on my own, it will be a different story.</p>
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		By: J.J. formerly Jimmy J.		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2011/09/06/new-presidential-polls/#comment-265585</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J.J. formerly Jimmy J.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Sep 2011 22:48:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=9342#comment-265585</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Obama is a charming narcissist. I once knew a man much like him. He would knife people in the back while smiling nicely to their face. He did it to  me once and I realized he was a nasty piece of work. In spite of that, his charm was such that I had to constantly remind myself of what lay  behind the charm. He was just so likable on a surface level. That is Obama. Hard not to like him, especiallly when you have not seen what lies behind the charm.  Obama is an expert at glad handing, diverting blame, and generally always placing himself in the light of goodness. Most  of us  here are not deceived, but  so many are. That is why these polls come out  like this. People find it hard to dislike someone so seemingly charming.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Obama is a charming narcissist. I once knew a man much like him. He would knife people in the back while smiling nicely to their face. He did it to  me once and I realized he was a nasty piece of work. In spite of that, his charm was such that I had to constantly remind myself of what lay  behind the charm. He was just so likable on a surface level. That is Obama. Hard not to like him, especiallly when you have not seen what lies behind the charm.  Obama is an expert at glad handing, diverting blame, and generally always placing himself in the light of goodness. Most  of us  here are not deceived, but  so many are. That is why these polls come out  like this. People find it hard to dislike someone so seemingly charming.</p>
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		By: neo-neocon		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2011/09/06/new-presidential-polls/#comment-265582</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[neo-neocon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Sep 2011 22:36:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=9342#comment-265582</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[SteveH: once again, the question wasn&#039;t whether people liked Obama.  It&#039;s whether they approved of him as a person.  I may be nitpicking here on semantics, but I think that&#039;s a very odd question, difficult for people to understand and to answer.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>SteveH: once again, the question wasn&#8217;t whether people liked Obama.  It&#8217;s whether they approved of him as a person.  I may be nitpicking here on semantics, but I think that&#8217;s a very odd question, difficult for people to understand and to answer.</p>
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		By: SteveH		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2011/09/06/new-presidential-polls/#comment-265577</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[SteveH]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 06 Sep 2011 22:20:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/?p=9342#comment-265577</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[How do you like somebody who you say emphatically is taking your country in the wrong direction? WTF? Do these same people have a chance of liking the guy who steals their wallet or runs a key down the side of their car?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How do you like somebody who you say emphatically is taking your country in the wrong direction? WTF? Do these same people have a chance of liking the guy who steals their wallet or runs a key down the side of their car?</p>
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