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	Comments on: For Memorial Day: on nationalism and patriotism	</title>
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	<link>https://thenewneo.com/2011/05/30/for-memorial-day-on-nationalism-and-patriotism/</link>
	<description>A blog about political change, among other things</description>
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		<title>
		By: madmilt		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2011/05/30/for-memorial-day-on-nationalism-and-patriotism/#comment-253724</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[madmilt]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 03 Jul 2011 12:11:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2011/05/30/for-memorial-day-on-nationalism-and-patriotism/#comment-253724</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[By no stretch of the imagination was this story ever intended to promote patriotism.

Fact: The sentence imposed by the court martial in that story would have had the same effect on the defendant even if the story had been set in the worst totalitarian entity ever concocted by history or fiction because any country, any homeland, is better than no homeland at all.

Fact: The message that the story conveyed was not patriotism but distrust of one’s mentors and courts — specifically it conveyed the message to never expect so much as a sequitur response to any expressed protest.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By no stretch of the imagination was this story ever intended to promote patriotism.</p>
<p>Fact: The sentence imposed by the court martial in that story would have had the same effect on the defendant even if the story had been set in the worst totalitarian entity ever concocted by history or fiction because any country, any homeland, is better than no homeland at all.</p>
<p>Fact: The message that the story conveyed was not patriotism but distrust of one’s mentors and courts — specifically it conveyed the message to never expect so much as a sequitur response to any expressed protest.</p>
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		<title>
		By: ErisGuy		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2011/05/30/for-memorial-day-on-nationalism-and-patriotism/#comment-249410</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ErisGuy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jun 2011 21:37:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2011/05/30/for-memorial-day-on-nationalism-and-patriotism/#comment-249410</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;Mann was a German exile from his own country, who had learned to his bitter regret the excesses to which unbridled and amoral nationalism can lead. &quot;

If only Mann (and others) had made a similar statement about the other half of Nazi ideology. If only they had denounced unbridled and amoral socialism (the only kind). Somehow the &quot;excesses&quot; of Nazis were ascribed to the &lt;em&gt;Germans while the nationalism of other Europeans never led them to mass murder, while the normalcy of mass murder in socialism was never ascribed to &lt;/em&gt;&lt;em&gt;socialism&lt;/em&gt; even thought the socialists killed more people (and with genocidal intent) than the Nazis.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Mann was a German exile from his own country, who had learned to his bitter regret the excesses to which unbridled and amoral nationalism can lead. &#8221;</p>
<p>If only Mann (and others) had made a similar statement about the other half of Nazi ideology. If only they had denounced unbridled and amoral socialism (the only kind). Somehow the &#8220;excesses&#8221; of Nazis were ascribed to the <em>Germans while the nationalism of other Europeans never led them to mass murder, while the normalcy of mass murder in socialism was never ascribed to </em><em>socialism</em> even thought the socialists killed more people (and with genocidal intent) than the Nazis.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Daniel in Brookline		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2011/05/30/for-memorial-day-on-nationalism-and-patriotism/#comment-249353</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Daniel in Brookline]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jun 2011 15:11:06 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2011/05/30/for-memorial-day-on-nationalism-and-patriotism/#comment-249353</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[By the way, I never read &quot;The Man Without A Country&quot; in school either.  Thanks for the link, gs -- I read it yesterday, and I&#039;m very glad I did.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>By the way, I never read &#8220;The Man Without A Country&#8221; in school either.  Thanks for the link, gs &#8212; I read it yesterday, and I&#8217;m very glad I did.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Sgt. Mom		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2011/05/30/for-memorial-day-on-nationalism-and-patriotism/#comment-249343</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sgt. Mom]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 01 Jun 2011 12:33:05 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2011/05/30/for-memorial-day-on-nationalism-and-patriotism/#comment-249343</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Just as an aside, there was a real Philip Nolan, and Edward Everett Hale afterwards felt rather regretful about having used the name for his story.
I did a post about him here -
http://celiahayes.wordpress.com/2011/02/11/the-real-philip-nolan/
The real Philip Nolan had a very, very adventurous life, and one of his close personal associates was discribed as “the most consummate artist in treason that the nation ever possessed,” and probably better deserved an exile aboard ship.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Just as an aside, there was a real Philip Nolan, and Edward Everett Hale afterwards felt rather regretful about having used the name for his story.<br />
I did a post about him here &#8211;<br />
<a href="http://celiahayes.wordpress.com/2011/02/11/the-real-philip-nolan/" rel="nofollow ugc">http://celiahayes.wordpress.com/2011/02/11/the-real-philip-nolan/</a><br />
The real Philip Nolan had a very, very adventurous life, and one of his close personal associates was discribed as “the most consummate artist in treason that the nation ever possessed,” and probably better deserved an exile aboard ship.</p>
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		<title>
		By: ziontruth		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2011/05/30/for-memorial-day-on-nationalism-and-patriotism/#comment-249216</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[ziontruth]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 May 2011 19:31:40 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2011/05/30/for-memorial-day-on-nationalism-and-patriotism/#comment-249216</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;Of course, WWII in Europe was a result mainly of &lt;em&gt;German&lt;/em&gt; nationalism run amok, but it seemed to have given nationalism as a whole a very bad name.&quot;

The idea that WWII was caused by German &lt;em&gt;nationalism&lt;/em&gt; (yes, that&#039;s where I place the emphasis) is such a common misconception that it might easily be a Marxist-inculcated lie (we know who&#039;s been educating the kids for the past few decades).

Nationalism doesn&#039;t call for world conquest, nor does socio-economic theory, nor does religion; but couple any of those to &lt;strong&gt;imperialism&lt;/strong&gt; and you get precisely that.

Nationalism + imperialism: Germany&#039;s Nazism.

Socio-economic theory + imperialism: Marxism.

Religion + imperialism: Islam.

Nationalism should never have gotten a bad name. It was only unthinking superficiality, most probably aided by Marxist educators with their ax to grind, that made it so. But the deeper thinker will realize the truth that WWII was imperialism that ran amok.

In WWII it was imperialism, and in the Cold War it was imperialism, and right now it&#039;s imperialism. The fact that the imperialism is tied to a different base doctrine changes little.

Those who think they escape the mindset of Nazism by embracing either the Marxist or the Islamic agenda don&#039;t realize their &quot;clean&quot; ideology is in fact a kissing cousin to the reviled Nazism. And why? Because they share the component that drives people to desire to subjugate all outsiders: Imperialism.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;Of course, WWII in Europe was a result mainly of <em>German</em> nationalism run amok, but it seemed to have given nationalism as a whole a very bad name.&#8221;</p>
<p>The idea that WWII was caused by German <em>nationalism</em> (yes, that&#8217;s where I place the emphasis) is such a common misconception that it might easily be a Marxist-inculcated lie (we know who&#8217;s been educating the kids for the past few decades).</p>
<p>Nationalism doesn&#8217;t call for world conquest, nor does socio-economic theory, nor does religion; but couple any of those to <strong>imperialism</strong> and you get precisely that.</p>
<p>Nationalism + imperialism: Germany&#8217;s Nazism.</p>
<p>Socio-economic theory + imperialism: Marxism.</p>
<p>Religion + imperialism: Islam.</p>
<p>Nationalism should never have gotten a bad name. It was only unthinking superficiality, most probably aided by Marxist educators with their ax to grind, that made it so. But the deeper thinker will realize the truth that WWII was imperialism that ran amok.</p>
<p>In WWII it was imperialism, and in the Cold War it was imperialism, and right now it&#8217;s imperialism. The fact that the imperialism is tied to a different base doctrine changes little.</p>
<p>Those who think they escape the mindset of Nazism by embracing either the Marxist or the Islamic agenda don&#8217;t realize their &#8220;clean&#8221; ideology is in fact a kissing cousin to the reviled Nazism. And why? Because they share the component that drives people to desire to subjugate all outsiders: Imperialism.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Daniel in Brookline		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2011/05/30/for-memorial-day-on-nationalism-and-patriotism/#comment-249212</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Daniel in Brookline]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 May 2011 18:32:30 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2011/05/30/for-memorial-day-on-nationalism-and-patriotism/#comment-249212</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Cathy:

&lt;i&gt;Most everyone thinks they are a patriot...&lt;/i&gt;

I&#039;d have to disagree there.  I&#039;ve met many people (too many!) who consider themselves &quot;citizens of the world&quot;, not beholden to the United States nor even particularly grateful to the United States.

It&#039;s difficult to get through to such people.  They don&#039;t know how very good they have it here (although some should certainly know better); nor do they seem to understand how very fragile our way of life can be.  They seem to believe that their civil rights, taken for granted here, will be taken for granted everywhere else too, merely because that&#039;s the way it &lt;i&gt;should&lt;/i&gt; be.  &quot;They laugh at scars who never felt a wound&quot;, as Neo once quoted.

(I do sometimes point out that those civil rights were very much in question, in the United States, within living memory.  I had relatives who, after fighting in WWII and returning home, had to change their names to have any hope of landing a job.  My grandmother was able to vote when she came of age; my great-grandmother was not.)


Is there a way for such people to see the light, other than being &quot;mugged by reality&quot;?  I&#039;d like to think so, but I haven&#039;t seen it.

respectfully,
Daniel in Brookline]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Cathy:</p>
<p><i>Most everyone thinks they are a patriot&#8230;</i></p>
<p>I&#8217;d have to disagree there.  I&#8217;ve met many people (too many!) who consider themselves &#8220;citizens of the world&#8221;, not beholden to the United States nor even particularly grateful to the United States.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s difficult to get through to such people.  They don&#8217;t know how very good they have it here (although some should certainly know better); nor do they seem to understand how very fragile our way of life can be.  They seem to believe that their civil rights, taken for granted here, will be taken for granted everywhere else too, merely because that&#8217;s the way it <i>should</i> be.  &#8220;They laugh at scars who never felt a wound&#8221;, as Neo once quoted.</p>
<p>(I do sometimes point out that those civil rights were very much in question, in the United States, within living memory.  I had relatives who, after fighting in WWII and returning home, had to change their names to have any hope of landing a job.  My grandmother was able to vote when she came of age; my great-grandmother was not.)</p>
<p>Is there a way for such people to see the light, other than being &#8220;mugged by reality&#8221;?  I&#8217;d like to think so, but I haven&#8217;t seen it.</p>
<p>respectfully,<br />
Daniel in Brookline</p>
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		<title>
		By: Richard Aubrey		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2011/05/30/for-memorial-day-on-nationalism-and-patriotism/#comment-249201</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard Aubrey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 May 2011 16:15:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2011/05/30/for-memorial-day-on-nationalism-and-patriotism/#comment-249201</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Some years ago, I was going around with some HS history teachers on the web about a Rev. War question.
Given that the colonists were divided into thirds, rebels, loyalists, and neutrals, I asked, why did so many more rebels than loyalists show up in camp and field.
After some lame attempts--loyalists were Church of England(?), loyalists were older (?), the teachers resolved the issue by deciding I was a patriot.  Solved their problem for them.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Some years ago, I was going around with some HS history teachers on the web about a Rev. War question.<br />
Given that the colonists were divided into thirds, rebels, loyalists, and neutrals, I asked, why did so many more rebels than loyalists show up in camp and field.<br />
After some lame attempts&#8211;loyalists were Church of England(?), loyalists were older (?), the teachers resolved the issue by deciding I was a patriot.  Solved their problem for them.</p>
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		<title>
		By: njcommuter		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2011/05/30/for-memorial-day-on-nationalism-and-patriotism/#comment-249184</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[njcommuter]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 May 2011 10:38:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2011/05/30/for-memorial-day-on-nationalism-and-patriotism/#comment-249184</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;b&gt;Neo&lt;/b&gt;, the comments link is affected, too.

Regarding patriotism: In Europe &quot;nationalism&quot; was loyalty to a region, a prince, and perhaps a culture on a continent where nations had grown from realms in a wilderness to States that occupy every square micron, every &lt;a href=&quot;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barn_(unit)&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;barn&lt;/a&gt; of territory.  Patriotism was thus loyalty to a one State and against its neighbors.

In the USA, patriotism is usually not &quot;my country against those other guys.&quot;  It has been, in the War of 1812 and the War With Mexico.  But when other nations have been involved, it is usually the case that the USA has been attacked (or believes it has been).

Most of the time, American Patriotism is loyalty to an idea, loyalty to principles, loyalty to the same things that provide the claim for American Exceptionalism: &lt;em&gt;We hold these truths to be self-evident ....  We The People of the United States of America ....&lt;/em&gt;.  That is a very different thing morally, psychologically, and in its effective tendencies toward good and ill.  We have never sent abroad a Napoleon, a Tamurlane, or a Caesar.

And that is why the European disrepute for European patriotism should not be applied to American patriotism.  They are different categories and characters of things.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Neo</b>, the comments link is affected, too.</p>
<p>Regarding patriotism: In Europe &#8220;nationalism&#8221; was loyalty to a region, a prince, and perhaps a culture on a continent where nations had grown from realms in a wilderness to States that occupy every square micron, every <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barn_(unit)" rel="nofollow">barn</a> of territory.  Patriotism was thus loyalty to a one State and against its neighbors.</p>
<p>In the USA, patriotism is usually not &#8220;my country against those other guys.&#8221;  It has been, in the War of 1812 and the War With Mexico.  But when other nations have been involved, it is usually the case that the USA has been attacked (or believes it has been).</p>
<p>Most of the time, American Patriotism is loyalty to an idea, loyalty to principles, loyalty to the same things that provide the claim for American Exceptionalism: <em>We hold these truths to be self-evident &#8230;.  We The People of the United States of America &#8230;.</em>.  That is a very different thing morally, psychologically, and in its effective tendencies toward good and ill.  We have never sent abroad a Napoleon, a Tamurlane, or a Caesar.</p>
<p>And that is why the European disrepute for European patriotism should not be applied to American patriotism.  They are different categories and characters of things.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Beverly		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2011/05/30/for-memorial-day-on-nationalism-and-patriotism/#comment-249162</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Beverly]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 May 2011 06:16:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2011/05/30/for-memorial-day-on-nationalism-and-patriotism/#comment-249162</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I read that in seventh grade, too! It made a mighty impression on me. But Southerners, ironically, are the most &quot;out and proud&quot; patriots in the country, and pretty loud about it, too. So it was still being assigned by our old-fashioned school system after it was probably quietly shelved in other parts.

Speaking of Europe and France opening eyes: my niece is in Ireland now, after having spent her semester abroad in France. She was shocked and sweetly surprised to find that the French she talked to &quot;really like Americans, Aunt Beverly!&quot; I told her it was mostly the &quot;chattering class snobs&quot; who griped about us. 

She&#039;s also learning that life in these United States is pretty comfy and spacious; she spent the winter in Ireland without central heating. Heh. I told her to take a hot water bottle to bed like the English do, or two on really bitter nights; she was grateful.

My friend Minna went to the Eastern Bloc when she was in high school, in 1977, with her high school glee club. I don&#039;t know how that came to be. I do know that when those teenagers flew home, and saw the STatue of Liberty, they spontaneously broke out singing &quot;God Bless America&quot;, with tears in their eyes. 

Minna said, &quot;It was so grim over there; it was scary. People were afraid to talk to us -- teenagers -- because the secret police were watching everyone. The food was horrible, and the cities closed up after dark. All the architecture was gray, cement block stuff. We couldn&#039;t WAIT to get home.&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I read that in seventh grade, too! It made a mighty impression on me. But Southerners, ironically, are the most &#8220;out and proud&#8221; patriots in the country, and pretty loud about it, too. So it was still being assigned by our old-fashioned school system after it was probably quietly shelved in other parts.</p>
<p>Speaking of Europe and France opening eyes: my niece is in Ireland now, after having spent her semester abroad in France. She was shocked and sweetly surprised to find that the French she talked to &#8220;really like Americans, Aunt Beverly!&#8221; I told her it was mostly the &#8220;chattering class snobs&#8221; who griped about us. </p>
<p>She&#8217;s also learning that life in these United States is pretty comfy and spacious; she spent the winter in Ireland without central heating. Heh. I told her to take a hot water bottle to bed like the English do, or two on really bitter nights; she was grateful.</p>
<p>My friend Minna went to the Eastern Bloc when she was in high school, in 1977, with her high school glee club. I don&#8217;t know how that came to be. I do know that when those teenagers flew home, and saw the STatue of Liberty, they spontaneously broke out singing &#8220;God Bless America&#8221;, with tears in their eyes. </p>
<p>Minna said, &#8220;It was so grim over there; it was scary. People were afraid to talk to us &#8212; teenagers &#8212; because the secret police were watching everyone. The food was horrible, and the cities closed up after dark. All the architecture was gray, cement block stuff. We couldn&#8217;t WAIT to get home.&#8221;</p>
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		By: Affirming a Moral vs. Immoral Nationalism &#124; Shel: News, Thought, Theology, Teaching..		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2011/05/30/for-memorial-day-on-nationalism-and-patriotism/#comment-249136</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Affirming a Moral vs. Immoral Nationalism &#124; Shel: News, Thought, Theology, Teaching..]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 31 May 2011 02:27:26 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2011/05/30/for-memorial-day-on-nationalism-and-patriotism/#comment-249136</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[[...] For Memorial Day: on nationalism and patriotism [...]]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>[&#8230;] For Memorial Day: on nationalism and patriotism [&#8230;]</p>
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