“Afghanistan has been in a state of prolonged warfare since 1980.”

True. And if we never had a reason to put boots on the ground in the region and they remained at war with one another from now to the next millenium, “frankly my dear I don’t give a damn”. However, 9/11/01 forced our hand.

You won’t find me defending the Carter/Reagan policy of assisting the mujahideen to defeat the Soviets. IMO, we should have given the mujahideen just enough arms to keep them fighting, not enough to force out the Soviets. Why not seek to bleed both sides dry to the maximum extent possible in such circumstances?

I don’t contend that the Iraq-Iran war of the early 1980s made today’s American soldiers on the ground in Iraq or Afghanistan safer. Instead, I contend that there was a wasted opportunity, we should have supplied both sides with war materials to keep both sides fighting and dying for as long as possible.

IMO, we lack a ruthlessness that is necessary to prevail against 10+ million people who believe they are on a mission from god. Nothing is more dangerous than people who believe they are on a mission from god. Until we show them that we really are the Great Satan of their rhetoric, they will prevail.

I agree with your proposition that Islamic terrorism is the trouble, that is rather obvious. However, it seems apparent to me (though I have been known to be wrong before) that the governments in many Islamic states use the jihadists to augment their own agendas. Why else has the House of Saud funded extremist groups? Why does Iran fund Hamas and Hezbollah? Why have various governments in the region given safe haven to jihadi organizations?

I contend that there has been, there is now, and there will be collusion between Islamic governments and jihadi groups until those governments are made to realize the cost of collusion is not bearable.

I agree that educating the people is important. One of the problems I have with the protesters in Egypt is that they don’t seem to be reaching out to educate the large part of the population than can’t read or use the internet. I worry that even the best reforms can be undermined if they seem to come from another privileged group, as I’m sure it will be portrayed by imams and the MB throughout Egypt. Many of the problems occurring now in Turkey result from the failure of the urban upper and middle classes to engage with the Anatolian villagers. The latter have now immigrated to the cities and want to establish their culture there. I think there are some parallels to our own Tea Party pushback against the elites. The big difference is that our Tea Partiers can read and are even encouraged by Glenn Beck to do so.

ziontruth,

The question is how can we get some of the Muslim men to start questioning their own assumptions. It’s the old shame/guilt dilemma, and it’s a very tough nut to crack.

The question needs to be: Do we trust the Egyptian people to chart a course for their own self government?

If the answer to that is no, then we need to really examine ourselves as individuals and as a collective group called a nation. How many of the doomsayers out there even know an Egyptian living in Egypt today? How many muslims or copts have they conversed with to make this assessment? How long have they lived in Egypt themselves?

If the answer is yes, then we need to offer assistance and support and, above all, education to the people so that they understand how real democracies work and how their own voices (not ours) can be heard. Let them make their own choices whether they be good or bad.

30 years ago, I had no problems with enslaving an entire nation to a brutal, ruthless dictator for the sake of securing our national interests. Now that I’m older, I can’t justify that attitude any longer because the situation has simply not changed in all of those 30 years. I happen to be a believer in democracy and the abilities of empowered citizens to desire and strive for peaceful coexistence with their neighbors. The democracy thing has been difficult for us, and it will be difficult for them, and may not even be successful for either of us. But I’ll take it any day over the rule of a tyrant.

If it’s good enough for us, it’s good enough for them.

If the America of 1949, with long skirts all around and keeping it till after the wedding ceremony, could raise Qutb’s hackles, then the problem wasn’t with Greeley. For comparison, Jewish Law says women have an obligation of covering up (which makes them look far more like the American women of 1949 than the potato-sacked women of Islam), but beyond that, if a woman dresses like she should and a man still looks at her in lust, the sin is his, not hers. Women can only do so much by themselves.

The fact of the matter is, Qutb saw in Greeley exactly what he wanted to see; what he sought out, his idea of the West, from the moment he boarded that ship out of Egypt. He had an image of how things were, and he found confirmation just everywhere he looked.

In that, he was the quintessential Muslim.

Thanks InTheory…. an appropriate quote.

We’ve been in Afghanistan for 10 years and Iraq for 8, and what have we gained? Afghanistan remains in turmoil while the Taliban crosses over from sanctuary in Pakistan to fight at their convenience. Muqtada al-Sadr is now a member of the ruling class in Iraq. Madness and hubris! In concrete terms what we have gained is thousands of sons and daughters dead, many more wounded, tens of thousands who will carry a burden from that experience for the rest of their lives, and hundreds of billions spent on battle fields where we have achieved a temporary reprieve at best.

Its time to try another strategy as far as I’m concerned.

“There is no instance of a country having benefited from prolonged warfare.”