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	Comments on: I am convinced&#8230;	</title>
	<atom:link href="https://thenewneo.com/2010/12/01/i-am-convinced/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://thenewneo.com/2010/12/01/i-am-convinced/</link>
	<description>A blog about political change, among other things</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2010 18:09:14 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: neo-neocon		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2010/12/01/i-am-convinced/#comment-205265</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[neo-neocon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2010 18:09:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2010/12/01/i-am-convinced/#comment-205265</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Fred: wow.  Just wow.  That case you posted the link to is a case of justice gone egregiously &lt;i&gt;wrong&lt;/i&gt;.

I won&#039;t say &quot;what is this world coming to?&quot;  I&#039;ll say &quot;what has this world come to?&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fred: wow.  Just wow.  That case you posted the link to is a case of justice gone egregiously <i>wrong</i>.</p>
<p>I won&#8217;t say &#8220;what is this world coming to?&#8221;  I&#8217;ll say &#8220;what has this world come to?&#8221;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Sergey		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2010/12/01/i-am-convinced/#comment-205249</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sergey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2010 17:06:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2010/12/01/i-am-convinced/#comment-205249</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[It is interesting if chewing gum being considered &quot;eating&quot; under UK laws? It would make a whole new dimension to an idiom &quot;chewing gum while walking&quot;!
Seriously, the best principle of Roman civil law was &quot;What people do with mutial consent and without serious harm to other people&#039;s interests, the laws found fair&quot;.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is interesting if chewing gum being considered &#8220;eating&#8221; under UK laws? It would make a whole new dimension to an idiom &#8220;chewing gum while walking&#8221;!<br />
Seriously, the best principle of Roman civil law was &#8220;What people do with mutial consent and without serious harm to other people&#8217;s interests, the laws found fair&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Fred		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2010/12/01/i-am-convinced/#comment-205228</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Fred]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2010 16:21:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2010/12/01/i-am-convinced/#comment-205228</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The former.  At least in a number of cases.  Merely sitting in a car behind the wheel and consuming.

If it were the latter we would be in 100% agreement.

Found one (charges later dropped): http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/774655.stm]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The former.  At least in a number of cases.  Merely sitting in a car behind the wheel and consuming.</p>
<p>If it were the latter we would be in 100% agreement.</p>
<p>Found one (charges later dropped): <a href="http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/774655.stm" rel="nofollow ugc">http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/774655.stm</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: neo-neocon		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2010/12/01/i-am-convinced/#comment-205218</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[neo-neocon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2010 15:18:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2010/12/01/i-am-convinced/#comment-205218</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Fred: I don&#039;t want to be nitpicky with you, but it still isn&#039;t clear how the law is applied.  Were people stopped merely because they are eating or drinking?  Or were they stopped because they actually &lt;i&gt;were&lt;/i&gt; driving carelessly, and as they pulled over the officer observed that they were in fact eating or drinking?  

It&#039;s not completely clear; could be either.  In the second case, the offense is the driving behavior and the eating/drinking is assumed ex post facto to have been the cause.  In the first, the eating/drinking while drinking is itself an actionable offense.

Of course, in practice, the lines would tend to blur.  People might be pulled over only for eating/drinking while driving and the officer would later say they had been driving recklessly.  What could the driver do, say they were driving carefully?  His/her word against the officer&#039;s?

But still, there is a difference between the two laws in the way they would be written, and what is criminalized.  There is also at least a &lt;i&gt;theoretical&lt;/i&gt; difference in how broadly they would be applied. In practice, of course, the difference may or may not be blurred.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fred: I don&#8217;t want to be nitpicky with you, but it still isn&#8217;t clear how the law is applied.  Were people stopped merely because they are eating or drinking?  Or were they stopped because they actually <i>were</i> driving carelessly, and as they pulled over the officer observed that they were in fact eating or drinking?  </p>
<p>It&#8217;s not completely clear; could be either.  In the second case, the offense is the driving behavior and the eating/drinking is assumed ex post facto to have been the cause.  In the first, the eating/drinking while drinking is itself an actionable offense.</p>
<p>Of course, in practice, the lines would tend to blur.  People might be pulled over only for eating/drinking while driving and the officer would later say they had been driving recklessly.  What could the driver do, say they were driving carefully?  His/her word against the officer&#8217;s?</p>
<p>But still, there is a difference between the two laws in the way they would be written, and what is criminalized.  There is also at least a <i>theoretical</i> difference in how broadly they would be applied. In practice, of course, the difference may or may not be blurred.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Fred		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2010/12/01/i-am-convinced/#comment-205217</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Fred]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2010 15:07:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2010/12/01/i-am-convinced/#comment-205217</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[it&#039;s not applied in that way at all -- I found a news report finally: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/motoring/article-1172155/Eating-wheel-add-40-cost-car-insurance.html

You don&#039;t have to have caused any accident, or actually done anything dangerous. The police consider eating while driving to be dangerous per se.

There was a case about 5 years back that I can&#039;t find a reference to at the moment where somebody was ticketed for eating an apple in stationary traffic... with the handbrake on. There was another one involving a Kit Kat under similar circumstances.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>it&#8217;s not applied in that way at all &#8212; I found a news report finally: <a href="http://www.dailymail.co.uk/motoring/article-1172155/Eating-wheel-add-40-cost-car-insurance.html" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.dailymail.co.uk/motoring/article-1172155/Eating-wheel-add-40-cost-car-insurance.html</a></p>
<p>You don&#8217;t have to have caused any accident, or actually done anything dangerous. The police consider eating while driving to be dangerous per se.</p>
<p>There was a case about 5 years back that I can&#8217;t find a reference to at the moment where somebody was ticketed for eating an apple in stationary traffic&#8230; with the handbrake on. There was another one involving a Kit Kat under similar circumstances.</p>
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		<title>
		By: neo-neocon		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2010/12/01/i-am-convinced/#comment-205215</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[neo-neocon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2010 14:58:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2010/12/01/i-am-convinced/#comment-205215</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Fred: no, it&#039;s not semantics---unless you define all law and all statutes as semantics (which law actually partakes of, in a way).  

It is not a ban on driving while eating.  In other words (at least, if I understand the way the law is written), no one is arrested for merely driving while eating, as they would be if there were a law against it.  It appears from the links to be applied ex post facto, after an accident or an incident in which a person is driving bizarrely or in a way that gains attention because it seems reckless in some way.  Then, if it is determined that the person was eating leading up to the accident or the incident, that is deemed to be careless driving under the law.  But eating while driving is not actually criminalized in and of itself.

I understand that the effect is not enormously different.  But it still is somewhat different; not just semantics.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fred: no, it&#8217;s not semantics&#8212;unless you define all law and all statutes as semantics (which law actually partakes of, in a way).  </p>
<p>It is not a ban on driving while eating.  In other words (at least, if I understand the way the law is written), no one is arrested for merely driving while eating, as they would be if there were a law against it.  It appears from the links to be applied ex post facto, after an accident or an incident in which a person is driving bizarrely or in a way that gains attention because it seems reckless in some way.  Then, if it is determined that the person was eating leading up to the accident or the incident, that is deemed to be careless driving under the law.  But eating while driving is not actually criminalized in and of itself.</p>
<p>I understand that the effect is not enormously different.  But it still is somewhat different; not just semantics.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Fred		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2010/12/01/i-am-convinced/#comment-205208</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Fred]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2010 14:08:32 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2010/12/01/i-am-convinced/#comment-205208</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[neo: there is an outright ban on careless driving/driving without due care and attention, and they deem eating while driving to be careless driving/driving without due care and attention.

So although there is no act of Parliament specifically banning it, it has been administratively banned by deeming it to constitute something that Parliament has expressly banned.

The difference is mere semantics, rather like CO2 being deemed to be an air pollutant by the EPA so that they can regulate it.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>neo: there is an outright ban on careless driving/driving without due care and attention, and they deem eating while driving to be careless driving/driving without due care and attention.</p>
<p>So although there is no act of Parliament specifically banning it, it has been administratively banned by deeming it to constitute something that Parliament has expressly banned.</p>
<p>The difference is mere semantics, rather like CO2 being deemed to be an air pollutant by the EPA so that they can regulate it.</p>
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		<title>
		By: neo-neocon		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2010/12/01/i-am-convinced/#comment-205205</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[neo-neocon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2010 13:57:28 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2010/12/01/i-am-convinced/#comment-205205</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Fred: thanks for the links.  

That&#039;s different than an outright ban on eating/drinking while driving.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Fred: thanks for the links.  </p>
<p>That&#8217;s different than an outright ban on eating/drinking while driving.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Fred		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2010/12/01/i-am-convinced/#comment-205193</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Fred]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Dec 2010 12:50:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2010/12/01/i-am-convinced/#comment-205193</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[neo,

Eating while driving in the UK links:

http://www.nopenaltypoints.co.uk/drinking-eating-while-driving.html

http://www.motordefenceteam.co.uk/offence-guide/careless-driving.htm

It is prosecuted as either careless driving or driving without due care and attention.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>neo,</p>
<p>Eating while driving in the UK links:</p>
<p><a href="http://www.nopenaltypoints.co.uk/drinking-eating-while-driving.html" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.nopenaltypoints.co.uk/drinking-eating-while-driving.html</a></p>
<p><a href="http://www.motordefenceteam.co.uk/offence-guide/careless-driving.htm" rel="nofollow ugc">http://www.motordefenceteam.co.uk/offence-guide/careless-driving.htm</a></p>
<p>It is prosecuted as either careless driving or driving without due care and attention.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Foxfier		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2010/12/01/i-am-convinced/#comment-205053</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Foxfier]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 02 Dec 2010 23:49:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2010/12/01/i-am-convinced/#comment-205053</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[njcommuter -
Haven&#039;t there been several stolen children who were recovered because someone spotted them (or the car) and chased them, on the phone the whole while?

I know I&#039;ve more than once gone to pick up a female friend, drunk, late at night; on the phone with her the whole way.

It&#039;s already illegal to drive recklessly; can&#039;t they just enforce the bloody law?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>njcommuter &#8211;<br />
Haven&#8217;t there been several stolen children who were recovered because someone spotted them (or the car) and chased them, on the phone the whole while?</p>
<p>I know I&#8217;ve more than once gone to pick up a female friend, drunk, late at night; on the phone with her the whole way.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s already illegal to drive recklessly; can&#8217;t they just enforce the bloody law?</p>
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