You left only one key part out. Wilson being incapacitated in the middle of it and his wife taking over the presidency

its from this, that Russia always says America is imperialist… and where the paranoia is from, and where all the machinations are sourced…

n that alternative history, there most likely would have been no Stalin and the gulags, no Mao, no Ho Chi Minh, no Castro. The world would have been a quite different place, not necessarily better, just a much different place.

excellent… i concur… those people were all direct consequences of how those few years around 1917 played out.

and like a flower unfolding, if you don’t start at the first flower depending on the subject, you wont have a cogent understanding of the flow and whats going on.

next question for geran

who was Moses harman and what did he (and his daughter) have to do with all that has come about since his newsletter was published. Bonus points if you can tell me if there is any relations to UK Harriet Harman…. 🙂

The US did ‘invade’ Russia with a very deliberate policy of overthrowing the Bolsheviks by aiding the White Russians. The two places the US landed troops was in Archangel (along with British support) and Vladivostok; this was done during Wilson’s administration, with the US withdrawing in 1920. The Japanese also went into Siberia (they defeated Russia in the Russo-Japanese War, with the naval battle of the Tsushima Straight in 1905 ending the military power of the tsarist navy; it would take decades for the Russians/Soviets to rebuild anything near a capable blue water navy, which just happened to be one of Peter The Great’s goals way back when).

This interventionist policy into Russia failed for one main reason: The lack of political will. The Red Army, under Trotsky, was weak and could have been beaten with a concerted effort on the part of Britain and the US in aiding the Whites. But that political will was sapped by the 4 year long face-off (18 months in the US’ case) on the Western Front. The death toll and deprivations of that titanic struggle created a war weariness which simply would not allow for a continuation of the war in any manner, not even such a noble cause as defeating Bolshevism. It’s akin to the situation after WWII where Patton wanted to take the US Army into Russia and defeat Stalin, but there was a war weariness then, too. The difference was the size and capability of the Red Army in 1920 versus 1945.

But in an alternative history, one must wonder what would have happened had Bolshevism under Lenin been stopped dead in its tracks as the Bolshevik hold on power was still very tenuous; a serious push was all that was needed to topple the Red Government. In that alternative history, there most likely would have been no Stalin and the gulags, no Mao, no Ho Chi Minh, no Castro. The world would have been a quite different place, not necessarily better, just a much different place. (Tsar Nicholas was already dead, so the Russian monarchy may have come back, maybe not. Kerenesky might have been able to push Russia onto a more democratic path, with all the ripple changes to history that would entail.)

from somebody’s poem…”as on a darkling field, where ignorant armies clash by night”.

F’rinstance, I’m happy to have Tammy Bruce on “my” side, even though she and I don’t see eye to eye on every issue. She is at least committed to the individual rights to which I’m also committed, and she at least recognizes the dangers of collectivist thought, groupthink, “sensitivity training,” call it what you will. Beyond that, if we disagree about the particulars of what people “should” do, well, she and I agree that that question is a topic for debate rather than a sin or a crime.

I wouldn’t call the US effort in Russia “an invasion”. It was troops sent to support the White Russians. They were sent to Russia and served there, but didn’t really invade, any more than Americans sent to the UK in WW2 invaded. They were sent to an area where White Russians were in control.

The Czechs were not really sent there. They were fighting the Germans when the Revolution occured, and had to retreat through Russia eastward to escape. They used a railroad, and attempted to avoid fighting the Reds, but eventually had to fight their way through. When they reached the eastern coast, they fought the Reds for the Brits for a time but tried to get home ASAP (their goal was the liberation of their homeland, not defeat of the Reds).

The Germans faced both the Red Russians and the Czechs. They plowed through the Reds with ease, but learned to respect the Czechs as excellent soldiers.

Bonus… what president?
Since 6 hours have passed, I will answer off the top of my head. President: Woodrow Wilson. Small contingent sent during first year or two after the 1917 October Revo. guess 1-3 thousand. Czechs and Brits also sent some.

I will treat this like a quiz show and use only what is in my head, not in the Net.