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	Comments on: US v. Arizona: where&#8217;s the conflict?	</title>
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	<link>https://thenewneo.com/2010/07/10/us-v-arizona-wheres-the-conflict/</link>
	<description>A blog about political change, among other things</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Mon, 12 Jul 2010 21:02:36 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: Montie		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2010/07/10/us-v-arizona-wheres-the-conflict/#comment-171011</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Montie]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jul 2010 21:02:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2010/07/10/us-v-arizona-wheres-the-conflict/#comment-171011</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[In 1985, when I started my career in law enforcement, it was rare in Oklahoma to have contact with someone of Hispanic extraction, and even rarer to find that they did not speak English (so rare in fact that I once had to call my Puerto Rican girlfriend to hve her come to traffic stop scene to translate for us as we had no Spanish speakers on the Department). 

After the amnesty of 1986, I bagan to notice a greater and greater number of contacts with Hispanics and found that MANY knew little or no English. Of course in the intervening time I took it upon myself to learn at least enough Spanish (thanks Nora) to deal with most basic law enforcement scenarios, and it is now almost a pre-requisite in my city for law enforcement officers to speak at least some Spanish since we have numerous daily contacts with non-English speakers.

If I lived in Mexico, and knew that I could come to the U.S. (even in an illegal manner) and make substantially more money without ever having to go through any citizenship classes or learn English and be catered to with all manner of signage, government documents and services, TV and radio, etc. in my native tongue, never be questioned as to why I am here, and maybe have the possibility of a full amnesty sometime in the future to forgive me for sneaking into the country (just like in 1986), why wouldn&#039;t I?

As an aside, has anyone else ever noticed how those on the left always use the number 20 million when talking about deportation: &quot;You can&#039;t just deport 20,000,000 people!&quot;, but use ten or twelve million as the number when talking about how many folks are actually here illegally: &quot;Well, something needs to be done to provide a &#039;pathway to citizenship&#039; for the 10 to 12, 000,000 folks who are living in the shadows.&quot; or is it just me?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>In 1985, when I started my career in law enforcement, it was rare in Oklahoma to have contact with someone of Hispanic extraction, and even rarer to find that they did not speak English (so rare in fact that I once had to call my Puerto Rican girlfriend to hve her come to traffic stop scene to translate for us as we had no Spanish speakers on the Department). </p>
<p>After the amnesty of 1986, I bagan to notice a greater and greater number of contacts with Hispanics and found that MANY knew little or no English. Of course in the intervening time I took it upon myself to learn at least enough Spanish (thanks Nora) to deal with most basic law enforcement scenarios, and it is now almost a pre-requisite in my city for law enforcement officers to speak at least some Spanish since we have numerous daily contacts with non-English speakers.</p>
<p>If I lived in Mexico, and knew that I could come to the U.S. (even in an illegal manner) and make substantially more money without ever having to go through any citizenship classes or learn English and be catered to with all manner of signage, government documents and services, TV and radio, etc. in my native tongue, never be questioned as to why I am here, and maybe have the possibility of a full amnesty sometime in the future to forgive me for sneaking into the country (just like in 1986), why wouldn&#8217;t I?</p>
<p>As an aside, has anyone else ever noticed how those on the left always use the number 20 million when talking about deportation: &#8220;You can&#8217;t just deport 20,000,000 people!&#8221;, but use ten or twelve million as the number when talking about how many folks are actually here illegally: &#8220;Well, something needs to be done to provide a &#8216;pathway to citizenship&#8217; for the 10 to 12, 000,000 folks who are living in the shadows.&#8221; or is it just me?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Artfldgr		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2010/07/10/us-v-arizona-wheres-the-conflict/#comment-170979</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Artfldgr]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jul 2010 19:52:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2010/07/10/us-v-arizona-wheres-the-conflict/#comment-170979</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&#039;In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin.

But this is predicated upon the person&#039;s becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn&#039;t an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language.. And we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.&#039; -- Theodore ROOSEVELT, 1907.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8216;In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin.</p>
<p>But this is predicated upon the person&#8217;s becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American&#8230;There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn&#8217;t an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag&#8230; We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language.. And we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people.&#8217; &#8212; Theodore ROOSEVELT, 1907.</p>
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		<title>
		By: strcpy		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2010/07/10/us-v-arizona-wheres-the-conflict/#comment-170949</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[strcpy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jul 2010 14:22:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2010/07/10/us-v-arizona-wheres-the-conflict/#comment-170949</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I only read Volokh when someone links to it so I do not know (not a lawyer so most of it is kinda boring).]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I only read Volokh when someone links to it so I do not know (not a lawyer so most of it is kinda boring).</p>
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		<title>
		By: Assistant Village Idiot		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2010/07/10/us-v-arizona-wheres-the-conflict/#comment-170945</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Assistant Village Idiot]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jul 2010 12:28:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2010/07/10/us-v-arizona-wheres-the-conflict/#comment-170945</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[strcpy - I think your analysis is sound.  What are they saying over at Volokh?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>strcpy &#8211; I think your analysis is sound.  What are they saying over at Volokh?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Maggie's Farm		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2010/07/10/us-v-arizona-wheres-the-conflict/#comment-170940</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Maggie's Farm]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jul 2010 09:04:55 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2010/07/10/us-v-arizona-wheres-the-conflict/#comment-170940</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;strong&gt;Monday morning links...&lt;/strong&gt;

Sea Turtle Egg Evacuations Begin Along Oiled Gulf 
How to fool people into thinking that you are attractive. Amusing.
Politico: Liberals analyze their Obama &#039;despair&#039;
IPCC shifts its focus from science to PR
Gingrich: Obama doesn’t understand A...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><strong>Monday morning links&#8230;</strong></p>
<p>Sea Turtle Egg Evacuations Begin Along Oiled Gulf<br />
How to fool people into thinking that you are attractive. Amusing.<br />
Politico: Liberals analyze their Obama &#8216;despair&#8217;<br />
IPCC shifts its focus from science to PR<br />
Gingrich: Obama doesn’t understand A&#8230;</p>
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		<title>
		By: strcpy		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2010/07/10/us-v-arizona-wheres-the-conflict/#comment-170924</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[strcpy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Jul 2010 04:06:53 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2010/07/10/us-v-arizona-wheres-the-conflict/#comment-170924</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;It seems that the Feds suit of Arizona is entirely a political show, and not based on any principles.&quot;

But it *is* based on principles and that is the issue. The Principle is that illegal aliens benefit more from a welfare state that caters to them than not and if we can allow them to vote then they will vote for the ones that give them that ability.

The principle being followed here is a real one and one they are trying to dance away from while still embrace.  They know if they embrace it then they will loose but they also know that is a LARGE voting segment (if they can get all the stars to align). They also know that a great deal of their supporters will be supporters no matter what too.

As such it *is* on principle that they do this - it just isn&#039;t on principle with respect to illegal immigration (they could care less). As long as you insist on framing it as such they can do what they want - but if you can force them to tell what they *really* think then they will be toast. 

Arizona is trying to force that - their &quot;new&quot; law will in reality do little to nothing to stop/stem the illegals flowing in. What it *will* do is force people to look at what is being pushed, not what is being talked about. 

In order for something like this to work it would either require enough states to enforce it that it might as well be federal or have the feds do it. Arizona opens the door for states to do it and forces the feds to let out into the open what they really believe or loose what they are trying to win. They are desperately trying to keep the fiction going and *that* is the principle - not illegals.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;It seems that the Feds suit of Arizona is entirely a political show, and not based on any principles.&#8221;</p>
<p>But it *is* based on principles and that is the issue. The Principle is that illegal aliens benefit more from a welfare state that caters to them than not and if we can allow them to vote then they will vote for the ones that give them that ability.</p>
<p>The principle being followed here is a real one and one they are trying to dance away from while still embrace.  They know if they embrace it then they will loose but they also know that is a LARGE voting segment (if they can get all the stars to align). They also know that a great deal of their supporters will be supporters no matter what too.</p>
<p>As such it *is* on principle that they do this &#8211; it just isn&#8217;t on principle with respect to illegal immigration (they could care less). As long as you insist on framing it as such they can do what they want &#8211; but if you can force them to tell what they *really* think then they will be toast. </p>
<p>Arizona is trying to force that &#8211; their &#8220;new&#8221; law will in reality do little to nothing to stop/stem the illegals flowing in. What it *will* do is force people to look at what is being pushed, not what is being talked about. </p>
<p>In order for something like this to work it would either require enough states to enforce it that it might as well be federal or have the feds do it. Arizona opens the door for states to do it and forces the feds to let out into the open what they really believe or loose what they are trying to win. They are desperately trying to keep the fiction going and *that* is the principle &#8211; not illegals.</p>
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		<title>
		By: IgotBupkis		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2010/07/10/us-v-arizona-wheres-the-conflict/#comment-170911</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[IgotBupkis]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jul 2010 23:37:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2010/07/10/us-v-arizona-wheres-the-conflict/#comment-170911</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&#062; &lt;i&gt;as long as their actions don’t conflict with federal law.&lt;/i&gt;

Ah, but the problem here is self-evident under the Dems -- their position is that there IS no Federal immigration law...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&gt; <i>as long as their actions don’t conflict with federal law.</i></p>
<p>Ah, but the problem here is self-evident under the Dems &#8212; their position is that there IS no Federal immigration law&#8230;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Henry Bowman		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2010/07/10/us-v-arizona-wheres-the-conflict/#comment-170881</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Henry Bowman]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jul 2010 14:36:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2010/07/10/us-v-arizona-wheres-the-conflict/#comment-170881</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I note that that, &lt;a href=&quot;http://www.boston.com/news/local/rhode_island/articles/2010/07/06/ri_troopers_embrace_firm_immigration_role/?page=full&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;according to the &lt;i&gt;Boston Globe&lt;/i&gt;&lt;/a&gt;, the Commonwealth of Rhode Island currently has its state police report to ICE those whom they regard as probable illegal immigrants. In Arizona, ICE has announced that it will not process suspects turned over to it by the State of Arizona. However, the folks running ICE in Rhode Island seem quite happy to process those turned over to it by the Rhode Island State Police.

It seems that the Feds suit of Arizona is entirely a political show, and not based on any principles. What a surprise!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I note that that, <a href="http://www.boston.com/news/local/rhode_island/articles/2010/07/06/ri_troopers_embrace_firm_immigration_role/?page=full" rel="nofollow">according to the <i>Boston Globe</i></a>, the Commonwealth of Rhode Island currently has its state police report to ICE those whom they regard as probable illegal immigrants. In Arizona, ICE has announced that it will not process suspects turned over to it by the State of Arizona. However, the folks running ICE in Rhode Island seem quite happy to process those turned over to it by the Rhode Island State Police.</p>
<p>It seems that the Feds suit of Arizona is entirely a political show, and not based on any principles. What a surprise!</p>
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		<title>
		By: RodW		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2010/07/10/us-v-arizona-wheres-the-conflict/#comment-170839</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[RodW]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jul 2010 05:11:20 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2010/07/10/us-v-arizona-wheres-the-conflict/#comment-170839</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The italics were supposed to stop after &quot;can&quot;.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The italics were supposed to stop after &#8220;can&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>
		By: RodW		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2010/07/10/us-v-arizona-wheres-the-conflict/#comment-170838</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[RodW]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Jul 2010 05:09:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2010/07/10/us-v-arizona-wheres-the-conflict/#comment-170838</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[A foriegn lawyer&#039;s question: Doesn&#039;t the 14th amendment presuppose that states can condition civil rights on citizenship?  That is, the point of guaranteeing that native-born Americans and naturalized U.S. citizens are citizens of the U.S. and of the state in which they reside is to prevent former confederate states from discriminating against freed slaves by manipulating &quot;citizenship&quot;.   This guarantee makes no sense unless states &lt;i&gt;can&lt;/i&gt;&lt;i&gt; properly draw distinctions based on citizenship.&lt;/i&gt;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A foriegn lawyer&#8217;s question: Doesn&#8217;t the 14th amendment presuppose that states can condition civil rights on citizenship?  That is, the point of guaranteeing that native-born Americans and naturalized U.S. citizens are citizens of the U.S. and of the state in which they reside is to prevent former confederate states from discriminating against freed slaves by manipulating &#8220;citizenship&#8221;.   This guarantee makes no sense unless states <i>can</i><i> properly draw distinctions based on citizenship.</i></p>
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