But even if it does and if it couldn’t be repealed in early 2011 because of a veto, I can see ways it might be defunded, and certainly ways it could be repealed in 2012 if a Republican president is elected and Congress is Republican as well.

That said, you can see that it would not be easy. A host of things would have to come into place. But backlash against the passage of such an unpopular bill in this particular strong-arm manner would be part of the reason such things might actually come into place.

Neo, when you use the word “impossible,” I have to concede. But I think there is a green apple in your argument behind which your point is hiding — the importance you assign to Obamacare’s unpopularity. If the Democrats are willing to pass Obamacare despite its unpopularity surely they would be willing to prevent the overruling of a Presidential veto of future legislation to repeal, modify or de-fund it.

There are some things that could change this dynamic:

After November the Democrats could be left with less than a third of the seats in both Houses which would allow the GOP to overrule a veto. I think such a huge GOP landslide to be unlikely. Obamacare is unpopular but not THAT unpopular.

Obama could change his attitude after November and become amenable to signing legislation that repeals or that is designed to modify or de-fund Obamacare. This unlikely scenario presupposes that the GOP gains a majority in both Houses come November.

Let us hope that Obamacare is never passed.

By the end of this decade, probably sooner, the US and Europe are going to have to drastically cut back entitlements no matter what was passed or promised because we just won’t have the money. I think this is the most likely scenario, and I do not think the Trunks will have the courage to change anything.

Hillary has announced that the administration will support the UN Small Arms Treaty. The EPA intends to regulate carbon, no new energy, new business taxes, and so on and on. These things all remove power from the people and give it to the ‘elite.’ The system is unraveling. I think we need to think about what that is going to look like.

Neo, maybe I’m in an unrealistically pessimistic mode these days. Not too long ago I too was thinking that whatever can be passed can be repealed — as I’ve expressed in past comments. But doubts have begun to plague me.

One thing that bothers me about the situation is that I don’t recall any other major entitlement that’s ever been done away with. Folks generally seem to take to a new entitlement quickly and get downright grumpy when someone merely suggests putting a cap on the entitlement or modifying the entitlement downward even slightly – not to mention doing away with it altogether. They are not rioting in Greece for less entitlements.

And here in the US no one in politics even has the guts to stop extending unemployment benefits, although most folks would take a lesser job at lesser pay if they knew the benefit would definitely be over after a certain time period. It seems to be really difficult to get out from behind that old green apple unemployment benefit once you get used to being there, n’est-ce pas? But I hope you are right and I am wrong.

I don’t either. It will be a right mess to be sure, but what can be done can be undone with work.

One thing to keep in mind — Western governments are running out, as Thatcher noted, of “other people’s money to spend.”

By the end of this decade, probably sooner, the US and Europe are going to have to drastically cut back entitlements no matter what was passed or promised because we just won’t have the money.

Indeed. I’m nervous too about depending on these Democrats not to make a deal.

OTOH, given the steady drop in the polls for Obama and healtchare, it’s clear that Pelosi has a much more difficult task this time around than last November.

OTOH, given the stakes of Obama’s presidency and the healthcare as the great Democratic Grail, it’s clear that this will be a no-holds barred push to pass the Senate bill in the House.

OTOH, given that the House has good reason not to trust that there will be successful reconciliation in the Senate, Dem representatives know that they are on their own and face terrible wrath in November if they vote yes on Obamacare.

From what I read, it’s a complex situation with too many moving parts for anyone to call this.

To reach this level of unpopularity on so many different fronts so early in an administration is, to the best of my knowledge, unheard of. Can anyone cite something comparable?

As for repeal, I have written about this before (I’m in too much of a hurry to find the link, but I believe I have two posts that mention it at least). I believe that, if Republicans run on this issue, they will be energized to do something. And I believe that they may be able to get around the veto problem by not funding some of the related budget needs; they doesn’t take passing a bill over an override. Then in 2012, if there is a Republican president and the Republicans retain control of Congress, it could be repealed.

I don’t quite understand this fatalism about “if this passes, it can never be repealed.” I’m not really talking about you; I’ve seen it on many blogs and many comments. Maybe people just want to give us a sense of urgency to stop it NOW. That would be best, for sure.

Sadly, I don’t see the Democrat factionalism as so serious that they will allow Obamacare to die. And I don’t think the Massa resignation has to do with any kind of ideological rift within the Dems — I suspect Massa is resigning in order to keep an investigation(and subsequent report) from seeing the light of day. Notice he’s taking a parting shot, not at Obama, but at Rahm Emanuel, whom he apparently dislikes.

I think the Dems will pass Obamacare. Stupak is making conciliatory noises as of late. In the months after we need to look for what kind of goodies Stupak receives.

Megan McArdle, who voted for Obama because she feared McCain would declare war on Iran, knowing that Obama’s economic tendencies would be disastrous and realizing now that Obamacare would be ruinous, has been putting all her faith on the hope that the Stupak anti-abortion contingent would resolutely stick to their guns and sink Obamacare. Megan thought that the Stupaks would never, never, ever vote for any bill that was soft on the abortion issue. Ah, the fanciful rationalizations of well-intentioned liberals who don’t know they are liberals …

Another well-meaning liberal — Mickey Kaus — believes that yes, Obamacare as written would be bad, but that after the American public suffered under it for awhile that the public would demand and receive corrections to Obamacare which would morph the Obamacare system into a wonderful thing — into just what Kaus believes the nation needs. Mickey has declared his intention to run for U.S. Senator. He has as much chance of winning a Senate seat as I have of turning into a pumpkin.

And I wonder whether the GOP would have the guts to repeal Obamacare IF, and this is a BIG if, the GOP were to win majorities in both houses of Congress in the up-coming mid-terms. Obama would surely veto a repeal and I doubt whether the GOP would have the numbers to overturn a veto. If I had to place a bet in Vegas I would have to put my money on Obamacare passing and staying and it being a major step into the Europeanization of the American economy.