“they werent going to debate
they were going to force the issue. they were going to make it look exciting. snappy slogans. designed outfits. posters, and monographs.”

Do you want to win against these people by using effective weapons or do you want to continue to bring your table knives to the propaganda gunfight?

I direct your attention to Bill Whittle and Iconography:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GdtqtfXdR-c&feature=PlayList&p=39137EC7FFF42580&index=7

You’re problem is that you understand well how complicated it all is but don’t know how to K.I.S.S.

Socializing anything, including health care, tends to lead inexorably to wider availability of a more mediocre service. I am reminded of the drab high-rises of eastern Europe under the Soviets, the norm of tiny apartments shared by multiple families, the hackneyed art, the lack of variety in the stores, the dullness of reduced expectations for everyone.

So true. Whenever I need to be reminded of the downside of government run anything, I think back to the food provided by my old high school cafeteria. The taste-less patties of soy (and maybe some meat) that passed as hamburgers, the bland generic canned veggies (the ones with the carrots cut into little tiny orange cubes), the similarly bland instant mashed potatoes, the dethawed and heated generic fish cubes . . .

The tater tots werent too bad, and its hard to mess up hot dogs.

In any case, would anyone want to eat at such a restaurant all the time, whenever they went out? Would anyone really want health care dispensed in such a “one size fits all” fashion?

I decided to spend a bit of time grabbing some examples of how your methods were employed.

you probably dont know about
“Der Stuermer” Kiosks. they had lots of catchy motto’s that reflected what the people came to beleive after previous years of hinting all the time.

you know, like whites, christians, and jews are oppressors.
here is a link to an image of one:
http://www.kintera.org/atf/cf/{2C11ED9A-B24E-4C15-BD70-D76A90D2529F}/P06P04.GIF

Die Juden sind unser ungluck
The jews are our misfortune

here is anotehr example of using catchy phrases to win the debate without debating. its quite famous

Arbeit Macht Frei- “Work Shall Make You Free”

it appeared over th gates to Auschwitz..

[and for those who still think that jews were the canary in the coal mine:
From the beginning, concentration camps were an integral feature of Nazi rule. In March of 1933, the first concentration camp was established at Dachau to house opponents of the Nazi regime including communists, socialists, liberals, some clergy and anyone considered disloyal to the Reich. Dachau became the model for the entire concentration camp system. Theodor Eicke, the second commandant at Dachau, introduced a system of brutal disciplinary regulations and punishments for prisoners. Dachau was also a place where a whole generation of SS camp officials were trained, including Rudolf Hoess.

By 1939, major SS camps existed at Buchenwald, Flossenbuerg, Mauthausen, Ravensbrueck, and Sachsenhausen. While all “enemies” of the Reich were imprisoned, the percentage of Jews in the camps increased dramatically after the pogrom, known as Kristallnacht. in November 1938.
weisenthall institute

We hear the stories and we assume that there was no 5 year period in which lots of others were the focus… when they ran out of those… then the beuracracy needed more bodies to grind up… and the polity needed enemies.

you see.
they werent going to debate
they were going to force the issue. they were going to make it look exciting. snappy slogans. designed outfits. posters, and monographs.

The Lleader is always right
[“Der Fé¼hrer hat immer Recht”]

The common good before the private good
[“Gemeinnutz geht vor Eigennutz”]

If I demand sacrifice from the people, even to the utmost, I have the right to do so, for I am just as ready today as I was in the past to make any personal sacrifice!

[“Wenn ich vom deutschen Volk Opfer, und wenn notwendig, alle Opfer fordere, dann habe ich einen Recht dazu, denn auch ich bin heute genau so bereit, wie ich es fré¼her war, jedes persé¶nliche Opfer zu bringen!”]

[the slogans below all came with images, but i cant post images]

Workers of the world UNITE!

We’ll execute the plan of the great works

“Thousands” of hands are raised voting “yes.”

and when you hear terrorist messages, and things like that remember this:
Be paranoid about “Enemies of the People”, “Sabboteurs” and other evil elements trying to sabotage happiness in the Soviet paradise. It’s a good cover for future cases of indiscriminant persecution. Party had warned you, now if you see someone being arrested you would know why

Ballot box announces: “For the Motherland, for Stalin, for World Peace, for Communism.”

“Giving beyond expected.” .

“Soviet Union (CCCP) is the first brigade of proletariat of the entire world.”

raise a generation, selflessly loyal to Communism

Every day life is getting better

and

No matter the actions,
Killer Hitler can’t hide his failures,
At Rzhev and Stalingrad.
To deceive people
He invented the “Lies Machine Gun”.
Which volleys lies nonstop.
The Machine talks nonsense at full speed,
But still cannot suppress the truth
As it is the truth that bellows at river Don,
And it can be heard on Volga too.
In Africa the truth is rumbling.
The “Lies Machine Gun” fires in vain.
Kukryniksy

solo el pueblo
salva al pueblo

Patria
Socialismo
O Muerte

if we actually decided to do that, we would be put on an equal footing with them. we would have been sucked into their game of games, and would have abandoned our positions!!!!!!!!!

sounds great from someone that dont know the tools.

the problem is that using the same tools corrupts the user. they become what they are fighting against. or havent you noticed what we have become?

their tools are lying and disinformation, and so your idea is to use lying and disinformation to remove lying and disinformation. their tools are to destroy culture, so lets destroy the culture more to save it, right?

what you say is completely UNTRUE…

its what they teach now, and PROVES my point that we demand entertainment over truth.

asserting a blind truth does not make it so. listen to your own words.

“better ideas require better arguments”

is this true? that a better idea without a better argument has no place? what your also saying is that an unfalsifiable idea is better as it can address all arguments even contradictory ones.

marxism is unfalsefiable, as is agw…

how did the better argumetn game go there?
did the better ideas win by right of combat?
that they had better arguments?

or

can you couple bad ideas to superior arguments?

you have fallen into one of the mental detail traps of their line of thinking. you ahve internalized it so that you dont even know your employing it.

that if marxists can formulate their arguments really well, they can sell the product to people that dont want it.

if hitler could formulate his argumetns and wrap them in charisma, he can package hell as heaven and get the good too fall in line.

so your retort is to tell me to get with their program. you ahvent learned the deatils of how it works!!! why it works… what thoughts do they have to induce to you to get you to sidestep your own common sense.

better ideas require better arguments and better headlines and better short slogans.

your are crying for the surface to be whats underneath… your are crying for a better front, and do not care abouit substance.

while i know that this isnt true when one would ask you, and you would not like it shown ,but its true in what you just said.

better ideas require better arguments and better headlines and better short slogans.

if i package feces right, i can sell it to someone that believes that statement above and they will not only take it, they will love it and eat it and try to share it.

You have to take the tools of the totalitarians and turn them against them.

you cant

the tools of sociopaths make sociopaths of those that decide to use and employ them

sociopathy is one of the only mental conditions that one can LEARN. that is one does not ahve to be born a sociopath. one can become an effective sociopath by learning and not shunning the meta state that they cultivate.

that is, a sociopath moves their mental position above the people they interact with. this makes their body a machine for them to manupulate as a tool to get others to act. its the god of olympus feeling that one can control people and things aroudn one by playing games. i am very familiar with their thinking, as i have had more than one try to turn my thinking to their way, like a serpent on a shoulder. (comes out like what a wonderful time we can have if you could share this)

this is why they are surface not substance. a person not actually living the moments, is a person who never learns to be in the moment in a real way. they are constantly learning how to perfect controlling the puppet that is their own body. this is the prive they pay for that empty feeling that cant be filled.

and once you adopt that mode of thinking, its nary impossible to turn back. its too tempting to use it all the time to get your way. guilt is the emotion that tends to get us back on track… as sympathy too. both are missing in pyschopaths, and sociopaths.

lets list out the tools of totalitarians and see if they can be used by those who are not battling for the same control…

lies
torture
blackmail
disinformation
conspiracy to coordinate outcomes
assasination
bribery
winning by other means (like going after family)
subversion

so your idea is that the good people of the world buck up and become sociopathic and employ those things that we think are immoral.

guess what?

thats the whole reason for the CIA.

so that the whole population doesnt have to be that way… and the soviet style answer? make the whole population be like that, so here is no way to clean it up.

so to recap.

you want me to lie to you to manipulate you into the proper action like totalitarians.

sorry, i have morals…
otherwise thats what i would be doing…

And this is why despotism wins:

The counter revolution is too boring and grounded in reality to be interesting enough to keep someone’s attention long enough for them to learn DETAILS. They would rather play at something else.

What is true is that better ideas require better arguments and better headlines and better short slogans. You have to take the tools of the totalitarians and turn them against them.

they want to have meaningful debates and discussions, but physics, chemistry, and engineering are BORING…

so in essence they are angry they cant participate, and blamethe state for not letting them. but in truth, they have very little to put in, as they dont know much. they wont admit this, for then they have to admit no one is keeping them out but themselves… and why? because the keys to entry of meaningfulness is to know the boring stuff.

one reason i often have something interesting to say is that i have learned so much boring stuff, i start to generate lots of interesting things that many who wish to be entertained are entertained by.

its a funny effect that i have noticed since i was a child.

people enjoy being out thinked…
they love the magician, who amazes them
they want the guy who can qwip and amaze them
they want bright points and advert propaganda over facts and debate.

all the while, they defend their ignorance to defend this pleasure.

the same way a person who loves magic doesnt want to know how the tricks are done. they stop being magic and then become boring.

thanks lex…

And this is why despotism wins:

The counter revolution is too boring and grounded in reality to be interesting enough to keep someone’s attention long enough for them to learn DETAILS. They would rather play at something else.

You think your going to counter a 100+ year old refined ideology by being ignorant?
That your superior intellect is enough that you can out think them on your feet?

Another reason why despotism wins:
The relative opinions of those who have ideas and self confidence have more veracity and relevance than actual history, facts, experience, and practice.

That is, all ideas are equal, so:
No experience counts.
Or rather, experience counts for naught

Do you think that the burden is as the liberals say, to the teacher to make the subject interesting so that the student wants to learn?

Can you see the latest Bruce lee or Chinese kung fu flick following that system?
Sounds remarkably what the liberals changed western ed to.

The master has to run around entertaining the kids like a clown in order to have students. The students don’t have to sacrifice time, energy, or anything to learn. Its all the burden of the other to force them through hedonism to learn what they find hard and too big.

Sounds brilliant! No?

You realize that your missive basically says:
Lie to me or else I won’t listen to you… your boring then…

Remember the man telling the truth in honor is limited with what he can work with
If what he has is ugly, that is all he has.

But one willing to lie has everything, including the imagined to entertain you with.

How far has removing the burden from the student and placing it all on the entertainer gotten us?

What have you learned that you really didn’t like once you didn’t HAVE to?

Do you really think that learning 75 years of missing history and methods can be given to you in a paragraph and not let you call me some name to discount me?

And there in lies the biggest problem..

As an example.. I have often posted links to life stories of those who lived under this. Pretty much the only one that gets discussed is Anne. Attempts to bring up the whole spectra (as a point in education) is always met with some form of social approbation, or its ignored. The one thing that isn’t done is read it. is it because she is jewish? Most say no… but when you see things like this http://centropa.org/ over and over, and know that these others are relegated to the trash heap as not being a part of history, then you start to think differently. (even now I expect to have someone say something because I said something and didn’t toe the line they say doesn’t exist. however, cross that line enough and your sure its there, and that they intend there be no room for others).

Since 2000, Centropa has interviewed almost 1,300 elderly Jews still living in the 15 countries between the Baltic and the Aegean (from Estonia and Russia to Greece and Turkey), but we never use video nor do we focus primarily on the Holocaust. Instead, we collect and digitize family snapshots–tens of thousands of them. We spend between six to twenty hours with each respondent, asking them to paint for us a picture of the world they grew up in–as well as the world they rebuilt for their families after the war (we also dutifully record everything our respondents wish to share with us about the Shoah).

I think centropa is great… so don’t think that I don’t
But I also think that its sad too… for fates were shared…

did you follow ANY of those links to read the larger documents on the other side?

Yes? Then I am sorry that my post was long for you!

No?

Then you’re partly responsible for such long posts, just as students in a class are responsible for learning the subject if they don’t want the subject brought to them in class and done there.

I can easily refer to a common history, if you read and make it common.

(ergo the force behind Hitler as a comparison. We don’t have soviet russia, or Chinese histories to refer to, like they do. we only have the one they gave us, and that one has been ridiculed to the point it cant be used. So in actuality we have none. And cant have any because its BORING… )

I will tell you something..

You can learn from history past
Or you can learn from the history you live
Failure to do the first dooms you to the second.

(and that’s my words speaking — not a quote)

And the failure of the first to be interesting enough for you to bother and be entertained is why you and all the others are going to learn the same lesson the hard way. regardless of whatever arguments that people bring up, because if they are not grounded in reality, and in history, the same history they are copying, its just a bunch of people titillating themselves in guessing who is right.

Getting upset at me for trying TOO HARD, and then ignoring me when i try too soft, is the tactic of balancing on a razor blade to satisfy someone that really doesn’t want to be satisfied!

Vanderleuen,
Like the liberals you have decided that your life is more fun and full of pleasure if you only learn what’s fun and presented for your amusement.

I don’t think that wahts happening to us is very amusing.
I think its serious

So I put aside my amusements to drum up history I know in detail so that I could help edify those who have never known.

The response? you wasted your tiem artful, we want to be entertained…

Bring on the dancing girls, bring on bread and circuses and damn the future
(unless saving it is fun)

By the way..

I wasn’t born to amuse you or any one else to be listened to.

You either think that what I have is valuable, or you don’t

But I will note one thing.

ALL the members of my current family were the few who saw and understood what was happening. The others died with the other millions who were not able to see what was happening. In many ways, we survivors are the better thinking people of a mass of others caught in a trap that succeeded in exterminating them.