<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?><rss version="2.0"
	xmlns:content="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/content/"
	xmlns:dc="http://purl.org/dc/elements/1.1/"
	xmlns:atom="http://www.w3.org/2005/Atom"
	xmlns:sy="http://purl.org/rss/1.0/modules/syndication/"
	
	>
<channel>
	<title>
	Comments on: Health insurance death spiral	</title>
	<atom:link href="https://thenewneo.com/2009/10/16/health-insurance-death-spiral/feed/" rel="self" type="application/rss+xml" />
	<link>https://thenewneo.com/2009/10/16/health-insurance-death-spiral/</link>
	<description>A blog about political change, among other things</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Sat, 31 Oct 2009 16:28:05 +0000</lastBuildDate>
	<sy:updatePeriod>
	hourly	</sy:updatePeriod>
	<sy:updateFrequency>
	1	</sy:updateFrequency>
	<generator>https://wordpress.org/?v=7.0</generator>
	<item>
		<title>
		By: Boots		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2009/10/16/health-insurance-death-spiral/#comment-130074</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Boots]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Oct 2009 02:06:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2009/10/16/health-insurance-death-spiral/#comment-130074</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I have the misfortune of having a liberal couple from Canada in my circle of acquaintances....their smug attitude on all things health-related is so annoying!  Funny thing is, they moved here many years ago, but have recently become American citizens.  They keep extolling the benefits of Canadian style socialism, but don&#039;t seem to want to live it, hmmm.........]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I have the misfortune of having a liberal couple from Canada in my circle of acquaintances&#8230;.their smug attitude on all things health-related is so annoying!  Funny thing is, they moved here many years ago, but have recently become American citizens.  They keep extolling the benefits of Canadian style socialism, but don&#8217;t seem to want to live it, hmmm&#8230;&#8230;&#8230;</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Doom		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2009/10/16/health-insurance-death-spiral/#comment-129879</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Doom]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Oct 2009 19:24:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2009/10/16/health-insurance-death-spiral/#comment-129879</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I think you covered it in your words well.  Essentially, what is a flaw is not seen as a flaw by those who support an theoretical ideal over the practical.  They will be whining when they have no good insurance, but right now they &quot;know&quot; that won&#039;t happen and even if it does, they will be covered by the government option.  

I do not even know how to talk to these people.  Do they understand what they will be giving up?  No.  Do they care?  Not yet.  By the time they do, if they have their way, there will be no fixing it.  

On some people, I am quits politically.  They simply cannot or will not understand.  I am sure, however, you understand having been on that side (and more recently than I).  Can&#039;t make a horse drink, though shooting it might be sorely tempting at times. *grimace*  I almost wish I was morally half as politically sociapathic as they seem to be.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I think you covered it in your words well.  Essentially, what is a flaw is not seen as a flaw by those who support an theoretical ideal over the practical.  They will be whining when they have no good insurance, but right now they &#8220;know&#8221; that won&#8217;t happen and even if it does, they will be covered by the government option.  </p>
<p>I do not even know how to talk to these people.  Do they understand what they will be giving up?  No.  Do they care?  Not yet.  By the time they do, if they have their way, there will be no fixing it.  </p>
<p>On some people, I am quits politically.  They simply cannot or will not understand.  I am sure, however, you understand having been on that side (and more recently than I).  Can&#8217;t make a horse drink, though shooting it might be sorely tempting at times. *grimace*  I almost wish I was morally half as politically sociapathic as they seem to be.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: J.J. formerly Jimmy J.		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2009/10/16/health-insurance-death-spiral/#comment-129873</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J.J. formerly Jimmy J.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Oct 2009 18:33:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2009/10/16/health-insurance-death-spiral/#comment-129873</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Beverly, 
Your dad and I must be about the same age.  Like him, I remember a totally different picture back in the 40s, 50s and 60s. It was the advent of Medicare and Medicaid (1965) that changed many things. I remember reading in the paper that many hospitals had been just staying open until Medicare and Medicaid began because they had so little business. A couple of years after the Ms began hospitals were flourishing with lots of new patients. The low reimbursements were, for them like manna from Heaven. But the picture really changed when the government passed the law requiring ERs to take any and all patients. I&#039;m not sure when that happened, but judging from the way hospital costs shot up between 1980 and 1990, I think it happened in that time frame. The hospitals began raising their prices to insureds and those who could pay to cover all the pro-bono treatment. 

Our daughter is self employed.  She has been able to obtain good health insurance with a $2500 deductible at a reasonable cost. If most people had $2500-$5000 deductible it would bring costs way down. When people pay the first dollars out of pocket, they do not seek treartment for a simple ailments, and they usually try to do some preventive activities by eating right and exercising. 

I don&#039;t think most  people know what it means when the dems say they  are going to cut $500 billion out of Medicare Advantage. Medicare Advantage is a program offered by HMOs and PPOs that combije Medicare and Medigap into one seamless policy. It&#039;s a good deal for those who hcan afford it. For another $3000 - $8000/year a Medicare patient gets medical, hospitalization, drug and preventive care all wrapped together. If a Medicare  recipient buys a separate Medigap policy it entails dealing with two different entities in getting claims taken care of.   When the government cuts $500 billion in payments to Medicare Advantage, those Medicare recipients are going  to have to cough up more money to keep their same level of benefits. So, is it any wonder that Medicare Advantage recipients are up in arms about this? If they aren&#039;t they just don&#039;t understand what&#039;s going on.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Beverly,<br />
Your dad and I must be about the same age.  Like him, I remember a totally different picture back in the 40s, 50s and 60s. It was the advent of Medicare and Medicaid (1965) that changed many things. I remember reading in the paper that many hospitals had been just staying open until Medicare and Medicaid began because they had so little business. A couple of years after the Ms began hospitals were flourishing with lots of new patients. The low reimbursements were, for them like manna from Heaven. But the picture really changed when the government passed the law requiring ERs to take any and all patients. I&#8217;m not sure when that happened, but judging from the way hospital costs shot up between 1980 and 1990, I think it happened in that time frame. The hospitals began raising their prices to insureds and those who could pay to cover all the pro-bono treatment. </p>
<p>Our daughter is self employed.  She has been able to obtain good health insurance with a $2500 deductible at a reasonable cost. If most people had $2500-$5000 deductible it would bring costs way down. When people pay the first dollars out of pocket, they do not seek treartment for a simple ailments, and they usually try to do some preventive activities by eating right and exercising. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think most  people know what it means when the dems say they  are going to cut $500 billion out of Medicare Advantage. Medicare Advantage is a program offered by HMOs and PPOs that combije Medicare and Medigap into one seamless policy. It&#8217;s a good deal for those who hcan afford it. For another $3000 &#8211; $8000/year a Medicare patient gets medical, hospitalization, drug and preventive care all wrapped together. If a Medicare  recipient buys a separate Medigap policy it entails dealing with two different entities in getting claims taken care of.   When the government cuts $500 billion in payments to Medicare Advantage, those Medicare recipients are going  to have to cough up more money to keep their same level of benefits. So, is it any wonder that Medicare Advantage recipients are up in arms about this? If they aren&#8217;t they just don&#8217;t understand what&#8217;s going on.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Beverly		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2009/10/16/health-insurance-death-spiral/#comment-129832</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Beverly]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Oct 2009 06:23:39 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2009/10/16/health-insurance-death-spiral/#comment-129832</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[My dad was a top executive at a major medical insurance company; worked in the business from college to retirement. They sold the &quot;major medical&quot; policies to companies. He started in 1950.

Several things were different back then, he says: there were many more competitors, and you had to really stay lean and mean to underbid your competitors. Second, the policies were for MAJOR medical expenses, like catastrophic illnesses and accidents. Everyone paid for their routine health care out of pocket. Ergo, policies were a lot cheaper. And no one expected to buy insurance to cover hangnail treatments, for heaven&#039;s sake.

Finally, he said that, because of competition and (for most of the men he worked with, anyway) a sense of honor and ethical dealing meant that you didn&#039;t try to cheat your customers. And you sure as hell didn&#039;t make cheating them part of your business plan. If a claim was due, it was paid, with very few exceptions.

He&#039;s been bewildered and infuriated by Blue Cross&#039;s perfidious behavior in our sister&#039;s hospice case: they claim that, because she awoke out of a coma, she didn&#039;t need hospice after all (never mind that she died just five weeks later). These bastards stuck my elderly father with the bill -- and he&#039;s paying for nursing care for our mother, who&#039;s ill with pancreatic cancer, as well.

THAT kind of behavior is what makes people &lt;i&gt;hate&lt;/i&gt; the insurance companies. And it&#039;s commonplace these days. My own owes me $600 from two years ago, even though every customer &quot;service&quot; rep tells me they do, in fact and under contract, owe me the damn money. 

Socialized medicine will suck worse, though, because there isn&#039;t even the feeble incentive of competition and an outside authority to kick its behind. If they stiff you, you&#039;re truly stuck. 

I&#039;m seriously thinking of getting a major medical policy. They&#039;re so much cheaper, and the money that I&#039;m shoveling across the table monthly can go into my own health savings account and pay for the checkups and so on.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>My dad was a top executive at a major medical insurance company; worked in the business from college to retirement. They sold the &#8220;major medical&#8221; policies to companies. He started in 1950.</p>
<p>Several things were different back then, he says: there were many more competitors, and you had to really stay lean and mean to underbid your competitors. Second, the policies were for MAJOR medical expenses, like catastrophic illnesses and accidents. Everyone paid for their routine health care out of pocket. Ergo, policies were a lot cheaper. And no one expected to buy insurance to cover hangnail treatments, for heaven&#8217;s sake.</p>
<p>Finally, he said that, because of competition and (for most of the men he worked with, anyway) a sense of honor and ethical dealing meant that you didn&#8217;t try to cheat your customers. And you sure as hell didn&#8217;t make cheating them part of your business plan. If a claim was due, it was paid, with very few exceptions.</p>
<p>He&#8217;s been bewildered and infuriated by Blue Cross&#8217;s perfidious behavior in our sister&#8217;s hospice case: they claim that, because she awoke out of a coma, she didn&#8217;t need hospice after all (never mind that she died just five weeks later). These bastards stuck my elderly father with the bill &#8212; and he&#8217;s paying for nursing care for our mother, who&#8217;s ill with pancreatic cancer, as well.</p>
<p>THAT kind of behavior is what makes people <i>hate</i> the insurance companies. And it&#8217;s commonplace these days. My own owes me $600 from two years ago, even though every customer &#8220;service&#8221; rep tells me they do, in fact and under contract, owe me the damn money. </p>
<p>Socialized medicine will suck worse, though, because there isn&#8217;t even the feeble incentive of competition and an outside authority to kick its behind. If they stiff you, you&#8217;re truly stuck. </p>
<p>I&#8217;m seriously thinking of getting a major medical policy. They&#8217;re so much cheaper, and the money that I&#8217;m shoveling across the table monthly can go into my own health savings account and pay for the checkups and so on.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: J.J. formerly Jimmy J.		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2009/10/16/health-insurance-death-spiral/#comment-129820</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[J.J. formerly Jimmy J.]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Oct 2009 03:10:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2009/10/16/health-insurance-death-spiral/#comment-129820</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Neo said, &quot;I think most people would agree (although not the most extreme Social Darwinists) that we need to have some sort of bottom line health care for everyone, although we don’t agree on how to provide it, how much is enough, or at what point it would kick in (at death’s door, or preventatively, or somewhere in between?).&quot;

We have a bottom line now. It is called the ER. No hospital ER can turn away someone who wants (not needs) healthcare. One night  I accompanied a friend to our hospital ER. (He was having  a heart attack - from which, thankfully, he recovered.) I sat with his wife in the ER all night. Quite an education!  There were many people who were indigent (and appeared might be illegal as well) who came in and were given care for everything from sick baby care, colds, and other non-threatening illnesses to fractures, gun shot wounds, etc. (This was a city with a lot of crime and a high number of immigrants.) Most of this care is done pro-bono and the hospitals make it up by overcharging  those with insurance or who have resources to pay cash.  

If you have no insurance but you have a job and you end up in the hospital,  you will be expected to pay.  The hospitals go after those types of patients quite relentlessly. When people talk about medical bills and bankruptcy that is usually what they&#039;re talking about. It&#039;s very hard to payoff a $150,000 hospital bill on a salary of $40,000/year. It isn&#039;t a good system and needs to be fixed. But not with socialized medicine.

One way to put a stop to it would be to allow ERs to refuse to treat patients with no insurance. Then people would be more motivated to buy insurance - at least catastrophic coverage. What about the indigent?  That is where  store front, walk-in clinics  could become a lower cost way to serve this group. They could be run on a non-profit, Medicaid style plan. Walmart wants to start clinics like that to  serve their customers and if they could write off the pro-bono work, or get some Medicaid cash, they think they could make them work. Life- threatening cases could still be handled by ERs and the hospitals could write these off against  their taxes as charity or use charitable programs (like church run hospitals do) to help defray the costs.

The real problem we have is the model of employer paid health insurance. That  was a good plan  back in the 40s and 50s when it got started. In those days people worked for the same company  for 30 years and had some healthcare coverage in their retirement plan too. Today, very few people are staying at the same company for a full career and the lion&#039;s share of employers are small businesses that can&#039;t afford the good plans that the big corporations provide. The result is that people lose coverage when they lose their job. Or the coverage they have with their small employer is not that  good. Result: Many more uninsured or underinsured people.  The solution: Encourage employers to give their employees a Healthcare Reimbursement Account (HRA). That way the employee could use the money to buy his/her  own policy tailored to his/her needs that is portable.  Another piece to the puzzle for personal health insurance is to allow individuals to deduct the full value of their policy premiums from their taxes.  Finally, if companies could compete across state lines it  would increase competition and lower costs overall.

It would take time, but in a few years it would be just like auto insurance. Individuals would buy it when they first needed it and keep it all the way to Medicare. (Assuming Medicare survives!)

However, the dems want to punish the insurance companies. (Huge profits you know. Can&#039;t have that!)  Many, I assume, want to punish  them until they just drop out of the business and the &quot;government option&quot; becomes the only game in town. That is why Obama&#039;s pronouncements on healthcare reform never quite meet the common sense test.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Neo said, &#8220;I think most people would agree (although not the most extreme Social Darwinists) that we need to have some sort of bottom line health care for everyone, although we don’t agree on how to provide it, how much is enough, or at what point it would kick in (at death’s door, or preventatively, or somewhere in between?).&#8221;</p>
<p>We have a bottom line now. It is called the ER. No hospital ER can turn away someone who wants (not needs) healthcare. One night  I accompanied a friend to our hospital ER. (He was having  a heart attack &#8211; from which, thankfully, he recovered.) I sat with his wife in the ER all night. Quite an education!  There were many people who were indigent (and appeared might be illegal as well) who came in and were given care for everything from sick baby care, colds, and other non-threatening illnesses to fractures, gun shot wounds, etc. (This was a city with a lot of crime and a high number of immigrants.) Most of this care is done pro-bono and the hospitals make it up by overcharging  those with insurance or who have resources to pay cash.  </p>
<p>If you have no insurance but you have a job and you end up in the hospital,  you will be expected to pay.  The hospitals go after those types of patients quite relentlessly. When people talk about medical bills and bankruptcy that is usually what they&#8217;re talking about. It&#8217;s very hard to payoff a $150,000 hospital bill on a salary of $40,000/year. It isn&#8217;t a good system and needs to be fixed. But not with socialized medicine.</p>
<p>One way to put a stop to it would be to allow ERs to refuse to treat patients with no insurance. Then people would be more motivated to buy insurance &#8211; at least catastrophic coverage. What about the indigent?  That is where  store front, walk-in clinics  could become a lower cost way to serve this group. They could be run on a non-profit, Medicaid style plan. Walmart wants to start clinics like that to  serve their customers and if they could write off the pro-bono work, or get some Medicaid cash, they think they could make them work. Life- threatening cases could still be handled by ERs and the hospitals could write these off against  their taxes as charity or use charitable programs (like church run hospitals do) to help defray the costs.</p>
<p>The real problem we have is the model of employer paid health insurance. That  was a good plan  back in the 40s and 50s when it got started. In those days people worked for the same company  for 30 years and had some healthcare coverage in their retirement plan too. Today, very few people are staying at the same company for a full career and the lion&#8217;s share of employers are small businesses that can&#8217;t afford the good plans that the big corporations provide. The result is that people lose coverage when they lose their job. Or the coverage they have with their small employer is not that  good. Result: Many more uninsured or underinsured people.  The solution: Encourage employers to give their employees a Healthcare Reimbursement Account (HRA). That way the employee could use the money to buy his/her  own policy tailored to his/her needs that is portable.  Another piece to the puzzle for personal health insurance is to allow individuals to deduct the full value of their policy premiums from their taxes.  Finally, if companies could compete across state lines it  would increase competition and lower costs overall.</p>
<p>It would take time, but in a few years it would be just like auto insurance. Individuals would buy it when they first needed it and keep it all the way to Medicare. (Assuming Medicare survives!)</p>
<p>However, the dems want to punish the insurance companies. (Huge profits you know. Can&#8217;t have that!)  Many, I assume, want to punish  them until they just drop out of the business and the &#8220;government option&#8221; becomes the only game in town. That is why Obama&#8217;s pronouncements on healthcare reform never quite meet the common sense test.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: SteveH		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2009/10/16/health-insurance-death-spiral/#comment-129800</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[SteveH]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 21:48:42 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2009/10/16/health-insurance-death-spiral/#comment-129800</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[When it comes to things like health care, i&#039;ve about decided we can either have unequal results or we can have rampant corruption in attempts to prevent it. I&#039;ll take the inequality, which is ironically how the entire natural world is structured.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>When it comes to things like health care, i&#8217;ve about decided we can either have unequal results or we can have rampant corruption in attempts to prevent it. I&#8217;ll take the inequality, which is ironically how the entire natural world is structured.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Baklava		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2009/10/16/health-insurance-death-spiral/#comment-129796</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Baklava]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 20:32:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2009/10/16/health-insurance-death-spiral/#comment-129796</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[p,

He won&#039;t. We will suffer because of it.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>p,</p>
<p>He won&#8217;t. We will suffer because of it.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Thomass		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2009/10/16/health-insurance-death-spiral/#comment-129783</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Thomass]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 19:07:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2009/10/16/health-insurance-death-spiral/#comment-129783</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Hong Says: 

October 16th, 2009 at 12:49 pm 
According to the writer, “As matters stand now, if the Baucus bill were to become law, in a couple of years Congress would be forced to take up the issue again to clean up the mess the bill will have created.”

No need, the public option will be there pick up any slack!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hong Says: </p>
<p>October 16th, 2009 at 12:49 pm<br />
According to the writer, “As matters stand now, if the Baucus bill were to become law, in a couple of years Congress would be forced to take up the issue again to clean up the mess the bill will have created.”</p>
<p>No need, the public option will be there pick up any slack!</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: physicsguy		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2009/10/16/health-insurance-death-spiral/#comment-129780</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[physicsguy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 18:47:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2009/10/16/health-insurance-death-spiral/#comment-129780</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Baklava, how can he learn economics?  That involves sitting down at a desk and actually doing some work.  Has there been ANY stretch of more than two days since he arrived in office that he actually has not left the WH to do some actual real work. He is in perpetual campaign mode.   I believe the man is incapable of actually doing anything other than making speeches.  Maybe that&#039;s why his college transcripts have never been released.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Baklava, how can he learn economics?  That involves sitting down at a desk and actually doing some work.  Has there been ANY stretch of more than two days since he arrived in office that he actually has not left the WH to do some actual real work. He is in perpetual campaign mode.   I believe the man is incapable of actually doing anything other than making speeches.  Maybe that&#8217;s why his college transcripts have never been released.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
		<item>
		<title>
		By: Baklava		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2009/10/16/health-insurance-death-spiral/#comment-129773</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Baklava]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Oct 2009 18:08:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2009/10/16/health-insurance-death-spiral/#comment-129773</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Obama says, &quot;he is just getting started&quot;. &quot;I&#039;m not tired, I&#039;m just getting started&quot;.

Well start listening Obama. Learn economics. We can all prosper then.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Obama says, &#8220;he is just getting started&#8221;. &#8220;I&#8217;m not tired, I&#8217;m just getting started&#8221;.</p>
<p>Well start listening Obama. Learn economics. We can all prosper then.</p>
]]></content:encoded>
		
			</item>
	</channel>
</rss>
