Comments on: Obama as Humpty Dumpty (redux)

By: huxley

huxley — Sun, 12 Apr 2009 15:38:30 +0000

E — I thought you were not interested in this aspect of the discussion or my posts.

By: E

Sun, 12 Apr 2009 04:29:18 +0000

It would be interesting if Huxley addresses the issue of false positives versus false negatives, which Oblio rightly tags as a central issue on this particular argument. Why is not 100% then Not Known? That seems lame to me. If we look at Obama’s record and actions as a public man, it’s pretty clear there’s a strong Marxist element. It’s not a matter of all or nothing at all. We should be worried about how much evidence there is of Marxist leanings in Obama’s philosophy.

By: E

Sun, 12 Apr 2009 04:25:06 +0000

Oh Huxley, the point is that it’s more fun when there’s something worth reading on this very interesting thread. You’re being peevish and tendentious! Say something worthwhile.

By: huxley

huxley — Sun, 12 Apr 2009 01:43:54 +0000

Oblio — Early in this thread Lucius and Fred expressed, with some vehemence, “Obama is a Marxist,” and “I have never been shy of calling Obama a Marxist.”

I questioned those statements. Later I was under the impression you agreed with Lucius and Fred and that you were defending their statements. Now I understand that your main point is your disagreement with, as you put it, “IF NOT 100, THEN 0.”

My version is “IF NOT 100, then NOT KNOWN.”

By: huxley

huxley — Sun, 12 Apr 2009 01:42:13 +0000

E – If you are not interested in the discussion, you are welcome to move on.

This topic is four days old and I wasn’t aware anyone else besides Oblio, Fred, and myself were attending to it.

By: Oblio

Oblio — Sat, 11 Apr 2009 22:01:30 +0000

huxley, for good order’s sake, I never said “Obama is a Marxist” full stop. The closest I came to it was when I said,

I am arguing that Obama is Marxist to some degree, but not exclusively—more than 0% and less than 100%. I suspect, but the evidence suggests rather than proves, that there is more Marxism in Obama’s thinking rather than less.

I could hardly have been more qualified, nuanced, or circumspect.

On the socialism thread, I was specific about the core distinguishing points of Marxism: Historical Materialism and Materialist Dialectics. There are also non-Marxist statements and associations to consider: for example, there is the long time membership in Trinity United Church of Christ, which struck me as at least partially National Socialist in orientation. We could probably find a few good words that he has said about markets.

Like you, I am not claiming to read the man’s mind. Since I am NOT in favor of shouting “Obama is a Marxist” from the rooftops, that seems good enough.

Fred is calling attention to the asymmetry of the rules in which Obama “gets the benefit of the doubt and we have to hold in our suspicions.” Those are worth discussing.

This reversal can be expressed formally as IF NOT 100, THEN 0. That rule is an artifact of the socialization of a whole story about how wicked it is falsely to label someone as a Communist. This is my point about “false positive” being considered in polite company to be a hundred times worse than a “false negative.”

Both the story and the rule are examples of Humpty-Dumptyism, which is where all this started.

By: E

Sat, 11 Apr 2009 21:22:22 +0000

Seriously, Huxley? Where is this getting us? It’s YOUR responsibility not to mistake opinion for fact. This obsession with the Marxism point is a big time-waster. Oblio has been clear about his reasoning and takes responsibilty for his position.

Your posts have become picayune. Please move on.

By: huxley

huxley — Sat, 11 Apr 2009 20:56:06 +0000

I see what you what: I just don’t think it’s possible.

Doesn’t seem that difficult to me.

Just qualify your statement “Obama is a Marxist” in some fashion so I don’t mistake it as a fact I could look up in an encyclopedia or reference.

By: Oblio

Oblio — Sat, 11 Apr 2009 20:25:02 +0000

I’ll get you, my pretty, and your little dog, too.

By: E

Sat, 11 Apr 2009 20:24:20 +0000

Is hermanuetics like Dianetics? How chilling.