Look, strcpy, there’s obviously no way we’re going to settle this. First of all, we’re not even talking just about Hirst here; we’re talking about all modern art, which you said has, as its primary purpose, making its practitioners and appreciators feel superior to other people. Not only do you make such a sweeping and ridiculous statement, but you go on to say that you see the “real reality”, but then claim that I’m attacking a straw man.

Well, I do believe my appreciation of modern art and contemporary art, Hirst aside, is far better than yours, and I don’t think there’s anything wrong with thinking this. You seem to be affronted by the very idea that it is possible that you could be missing anything whatsoever about contemporary art — and you’re absolutely certain you “get” it, and “it” is crap. Well, let’s just say I am equally certain you’re wrong, and I don’t see anything wrong with me thinking you’re wrong. I can only say that I don’t get any pleasure from feeling “superior” to you on this one point; in fact it saddens me. If you choose to believe the only reason my father, and my parents’ friends, and my friends, and I have been involved in the art world is because we want to feel superior to you, feel free to believe that. I can only repeat that that is one of the more insulting things I’ve ever read, speaking of contemptuous attitudes, but it’s also obvious there’s no way we’re going to settle this in Neo’s comments section.

http://www.beachbrowser.com/Archives/eVoid/April-2001/Plasticized-Corpse-Exhibit.htm

should work.

“I don’t dispute that I think I see something in the art I appreciate that you don’t.”

Never said otherwise – you may find them works of beauty. The part I have trouble with is the pretentious attitude towards those that find it simple and a waste of time. That we just do not “get it” and, when we obviously do, say that it goes deeper and is something people like you just know and we can not get it. The display is simple, the meaning is simple, and the idea that we should be awed by your class revealing this to us is pure and utter pretension.

Of course, as I said, that is part of the need you have in this type of thing and you will probably never even be able to see that. Indeed – I point out that there are many works of art that took talent *and* have a deep obvious deep meaning that I detest and do not appreciate.

I find I also enjoy things that have no deep meaning and little skill to produce – if you look at my collection of DVD’s there is no doubt in that. However I’m not going to call them some great deep philosophical meaning that took real talent. I may like to eat at McDonalds, but I’m not going to give it to someone and try to pass it off as a gourmet meal (and then to get angry when others do not accept it as such is a passive aggressive way of calling others stupid – and use rubes are generally smart enough to realize this).

“Unlike you, I don’t think my way of viewing the world is the “real reality” – I see certain things, and I am quite sure there’s value in what I appreciate, but that’s not to say I think your perspective is worthless, as you seem to think mine is.”

Straw men again – perhaps one day you will actually see what is being said and address that. I can’t say I have high hopes for it at the moment.

“You’re clearly seething with resentment at the very notion that anyone might think the see or appreciate something you don’t … ”

Yes, of course – it couldn’t have anything to do with the seething snobbery displayed. Nope, none – after all being the simple peasant that I am I should *appreciate* it when my betters put a dead animal in a formaldehyde and make me realize we all die and force me to explore death. This type of art is mode wholly to be consumed by those that thrive on that type of thought. It is in the same class as the painting a while back of The Virgin Mary with dung spread on it.

“well, if you think you already know it all, then I congratulate you. You’re obviously quite lucky to have understood and seen and appreciated all there is to understand and appreciate in the world.”

It feels good to be that way. Of course, when your grand revelations are of this magnitude then I guess it may appear as as if I think I know everything – easier to throw objects at straw men than to go back and really think about what you are saying.

For an example of non-pretentious art that is in a similar vein look at http://www.beachbrowser.com/Archives/eVoid/April-2001/Plasticized-Corpse-Exhibit.htm. I like this art about as much as I like the formaldehyde exhibits (that is, I do not like either), however this one took talent and is oriented towards a broader crowd. In the end the guy in Neo’s article will not be remembered 10 years from now, stuff like the article I linked too will be. It *is* art that allows one to appreciate it on many different levels and has some deep meanings in there and, regardless of the fact that I do not like it, obviously isn’t McDonalds.

Of course, I obviously know nothing of art.

My impression of mildness versus obviousness of insult is exactly reversed. I though Mitsu’s and pierre’s comments insulting from the start, and revealing that they think them mild. Neo’s post describes the falsity of Hirst’s art. Mitsu and pierre go immediately at the sophistican and judgement of those who don’t agree.

I am less kind than neo. I immediately jumped all over that.

Please, at least make an attempt to show that you understand the point being made.

You’re clearly seething with resentment at the very notion that anyone might think they see or appreciate something you don’t … well, if you think you already know it all, then I congratulate you. You’re obviously quite lucky to have understood and seen and appreciated all there is to understand and appreciate in the world.

But then we are back to that whole thing of you needing to feel superior and the more articulate and expressive the individual is disagreeing with you the more you have to vehemently reinforce your base axioms (your perceived intellectual and social superiority). Otherwise known as “cognitive dissonance”. This type of art is aimed at you and the people doing it know that market very well.

You may go back and re-read what you wrote. You did, and still are, doing exactly that.

“the artist may be up to something more interesting than may be evident at first.”

Except that the “more than evident at first” is exactly what was evident – the simple assumption that we do not “get it” is *exactly* what I am talking about. It is a passive aggressive insult that is so deeply ingrained in your way of thought that you do not even get that you are doing it – it is simply a base axiom. The “art” is utterly simplistic in every way.

You are the target audience of modern (and *shudder* post-modern) art. There is no skill, no deep meaning, no nothing outside of two things – shock and feeding that contempt for others in this type of art.

It isn’t art – there are many great artists out there today. Works that inspire, that do have meaning, have beauty, have everything that is art. There is much of it I do not like, yet I can still see the thought and talent that went into producing it. Yes, some of it is even simple in it’s execution too, something I could easily physically produce – and yet it still is obvious it took talent, skill, and experience to produce it (which I do not have). This is not one of those – this is one that is made for shock and to help the pretentious snobs feel better about themselves.

“That’s sounds to me a hell of a lot more contemptuous to me, but then again I’m no connoiseur of contempt.”

That is because I’m one of the worthless daring to say what is obvious. The peasant telling a king he is just a person, not a god, seems like pretty good sense to the peasant. To the king it is blasphemy and that peasant is trying to rise WAY out of their status – the more correct that peasant is the more the king dislikes what is said. In this case a certain group (of which you belong) has elevated *themselves* to be that king and the proles are making fun of you (at least the king in the above example had some authority other than declaring themselves as such).

no need to fit in… this isnt a leftist den…

no need to join a collective that doesnt exist and gang up on mitsu… we arent actually ganging up, its just that mitsu from harvard thinks that that actually means something we should all defer to, and us smart people dont. i think mitsu comes here because we challenge him in ways that his collective freinds do not…

mitsu has missionary spirit, rather than pupit zeal… he is out with the heathens trying to convert them… and we all sound like the heathens in “eric the viking”, cause we percieve our real reality, while we see mitsu percieves the false reality spoon fed him.

he really doesnt understand that he is so smart he can be tricked easier than the average!!!

he doesnt understand that within leftism, there are two types as neiche said… those who rule, and those who are ruled… mitsu is trained to be ruled over… to not question his masters, his teachings, the validity of the doctrins, etc.

you trick the stupid, by promishing them things.

you trick the smart, by making them feel good about themselves and patting them on the head for the approval that they crave so much!!!

and i went to bronx science mitsu… i was taking college courses in grade school… so i know how bad this game of approval was and is like… how much your like an outsider, and alien, and how they make you feel love bombed and belong.

your zeal is religous and so we cant explain or teach you anything… after all, who can teach harvard anything? harvard today sucks and is a ghost of everythign it was.

pieerre, want to see how far in the bullshit you are? (cant show mitsu, mitsu knows all the right answers, and is here to convert, not to be converted).

At the moment I am looking on a picture by Joseph Stephan which I find quite charming despite the irritating fact that it betrays my bourgeois taste.

really? well, then you dont even know your own damn ideology!!!!!!!!!!!!! i mean, its one thing to say your on a side… but its another thing to side with something that you obviously dont understand…

and you use big words to cofuse yourself..

bourgeois = middle class

bourgeois [boor-zhwah] Often disparaging
Adjective
1. characteristic of or comprising the middle class
2. conservative or materialistic in outlook
3. (in Marxist thought) dominated by capitalism

a real communist leftist would not be looking at any art… would not own a pet like a dog… would not dress in nice clothing… and would not have a car… nor would they truly have a job, like mitsu seeks… and even funnier, they would never ever go to a school like mitsu attended…

in other words… the followers dont know what they are following.

and even worse… they wont listen to those who walked that path before, know where it leads, and what it means and what it stands for.

after all, the people promoting that are the ones that teach them… and insuring that they have such utter faith int eh false religion that theya re zealots and missionaries.

they make me laugh…

they dont like religion… but they follwo the christian doctrine of going out and preaching the word of their religion!

in fact, their whole thing is recasted from such religous backgrounds so its inviting and warm to them.

the bigger thing is that they have not read the works that describe the process that was done to them!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

yes they are out there… they discount them, and the quotes of the leaders… who are POWER people with no merit who have no ability to defeat the current regime and usurp power unless they can get mitsus and dummies to side with them long enough to get power.

ergo, obama is not acting like he painted himself.. his self is a convienient lie to acheive power.. how do i know? because communism, is a power dialectig, as is feminism, and all socialoisms… but mistu is not clever enhough to understand these meta concepts, they were removed years ago before mitsu was born… that way mitsu would not discover who is actually scrwing with him before they finish it.

he will nto read bella dodd, menken, and others like neo who found out the truth… and foudn it out the hard way…

mitsu has to find it out the way my family did…

watching their loved ones die…

otherwise, its not real to mitsu… or even most in our society… they are disconnected from reality and so choose the reality they will live in.

hirst and stuff is about that… mitsu is a good useful idiot… mitsu is showing the leadrs that by showing that the crap false teachings mitsu follower real well.

as i said, there is an old story of a chinese general. he came out one day with all his lesser generals and said i will show you my new horse. he takes them to the horse, and so says… “what a beautiful purpose horse” and the generals looked at him strangely for they saw a white horse. however, some answered.. yes. that is a very beautiful horse.

because they were not loyal enough to the cause to see whatever they told him to see…

the same interaction concept is used in 1984, when they ask.. how many fingers do i have up?

skinner has trained mitsu well in when they tell mitsu a dead shark in a tank is a great work of art… mitsu says… yes master… its a great work of art… i see how many fingers you say i see… i no longer will add 1 and 1 and get 2, i will get whatever answer my leaders dictate reality will give.