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	Comments on: The MSM still controls the message: change and hope	</title>
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	<link>https://thenewneo.com/2008/10/14/the-msm-still-controls-the-message-change-and-hope/</link>
	<description>A blog about political change, among other things</description>
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		<title>
		By: Beej		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2008/10/14/the-msm-still-controls-the-message-change-and-hope/#comment-88895</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Beej]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Oct 2008 03:33:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2008/10/14/the-msm-still-controls-the-message-change-and-hope/#comment-88895</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Thanks neo-neocon!

&lt;i&gt;but wondering if we will even have another election, yeah I think that’s going over the top.&lt;/i&gt;

Well, then I&#039;m up over the top with him (or her). I&#039;ve feared the same myself.

I hope you are right. I fear we may be.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks neo-neocon!</p>
<p><i>but wondering if we will even have another election, yeah I think that’s going over the top.</i></p>
<p>Well, then I&#8217;m up over the top with him (or her). I&#8217;ve feared the same myself.</p>
<p>I hope you are right. I fear we may be.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ronald Hayden		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2008/10/14/the-msm-still-controls-the-message-change-and-hope/#comment-88878</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ronald Hayden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 16 Oct 2008 02:11:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2008/10/14/the-msm-still-controls-the-message-change-and-hope/#comment-88878</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[physicsguy:
&quot;I hope we even have an election in 2010; maybe a real paranoid statement, but I’ll take wagers on it and hope I lose.&quot;

I understand how Obama&#039;s campaign actions lead to serious concern about the first amendment (especially with the Fairness Doctrine hanging over us) -- but wondering if we will even have another election, yeah I think that&#039;s going over the top.

I heard it from my conspiracy theorist colleague when Bush 1 was elected -- it was impossible for Clinton to get elected since Bush would have the CIA out fixing the election for him.

Then Clinton got elected and the conspiracy theorist didn&#039;t revise his world view, he just switched to deciding Clinton was part of the conspiracy.

I encourage people to focus on the stuff that really is likely to hit us -- taxes, union shilling through the &quot;no more secret votes&quot; law, more first amendment hits from the Fairness Doctrine, significant regulation that will strangle economic development, etc.

The unquestionable stuff we have to worry about is serious enough...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>physicsguy:<br />
&#8220;I hope we even have an election in 2010; maybe a real paranoid statement, but I’ll take wagers on it and hope I lose.&#8221;</p>
<p>I understand how Obama&#8217;s campaign actions lead to serious concern about the first amendment (especially with the Fairness Doctrine hanging over us) &#8212; but wondering if we will even have another election, yeah I think that&#8217;s going over the top.</p>
<p>I heard it from my conspiracy theorist colleague when Bush 1 was elected &#8212; it was impossible for Clinton to get elected since Bush would have the CIA out fixing the election for him.</p>
<p>Then Clinton got elected and the conspiracy theorist didn&#8217;t revise his world view, he just switched to deciding Clinton was part of the conspiracy.</p>
<p>I encourage people to focus on the stuff that really is likely to hit us &#8212; taxes, union shilling through the &#8220;no more secret votes&#8221; law, more first amendment hits from the Fairness Doctrine, significant regulation that will strangle economic development, etc.</p>
<p>The unquestionable stuff we have to worry about is serious enough&#8230;</p>
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		<title>
		By: neo-neocon		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2008/10/14/the-msm-still-controls-the-message-change-and-hope/#comment-88838</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[neo-neocon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 22:45:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2008/10/14/the-msm-still-controls-the-message-change-and-hope/#comment-88838</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Beej:  &lt;a href=&quot;http://neoneocon.com/2008/07/08/arguing-politics/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;Here it is&lt;/a&gt;.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Beej:  <a href="http://neoneocon.com/2008/07/08/arguing-politics/" rel="nofollow">Here it is</a>.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Beej		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2008/10/14/the-msm-still-controls-the-message-change-and-hope/#comment-88831</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Beej]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 21:23:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2008/10/14/the-msm-still-controls-the-message-change-and-hope/#comment-88831</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;neo wrote an article about pursuading others some time ago&lt;/i&gt;

I&#039;d like to find that article. I&#039;m a lot like csimon in that I&#039;m so frustrated I come on like gangbusters. And I was never all that persuasive in any event. I lack patience. I expect everyone to know what I know.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>neo wrote an article about pursuading others some time ago</i></p>
<p>I&#8217;d like to find that article. I&#8217;m a lot like csimon in that I&#8217;m so frustrated I come on like gangbusters. And I was never all that persuasive in any event. I lack patience. I expect everyone to know what I know.</p>
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		<title>
		By: physicsguy		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2008/10/14/the-msm-still-controls-the-message-change-and-hope/#comment-88801</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[physicsguy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 16:55:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2008/10/14/the-msm-still-controls-the-message-change-and-hope/#comment-88801</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Ronald wrote:

&quot;I’m seeing among the conservative blogosphere a real lurch into paranoia – one blog I read certain all conservative blogs will be shut down under Obama, etc. While I understand the seeds of those feelings, we’ve got to keep out of the mania infecting so much of the left and the press these days. *Someone* has to keep a clear head.&quot;

  You are more of an optimist than I think the facts allow.  Back in my college days I attended a few SDS meetings on campus (circa 1970).  What I learned is that these people seek power literally &quot;by any means necessary&quot;.  AND, they seek power in order to destroy the US.  They were quite upfront about their agenda in those meetings.  Don&#039;t for a minute believe that these aging 60&#039;s radicals have given up their agenda; just look at their lives since the &#039;60&#039;s.  Obama is their protege.  

  I don&#039;t think I&#039;m lurching into paranoia.  If ACORN, Arkansas sheriffs, what happened at the Dem caucuses to Hillary supporters, the attempt at silencing Kurtz on Chicago radio, etc. etc. is not enough to convince you that the Obama administration will not quickly seek to end all criticism of itself, then I don&#039;t know what will.  Expect your rights (speech and arms) to be eroded via &quot;hate crime&quot; laws and &quot;fairness doctrines&quot;.  Some &quot;emergency&quot; will quickly become a &quot;need&quot; for expanded executive powers.  With Pelosi and Reid in charge of the congress... watch out, for then Obama will have carte blanche in any legislation proposed.  The Republicans will probably not even have enough votes to mount a filibuster.

  I hope we even have an election in 2010; maybe a real paranoid statement, but I&#039;ll take wagers on it and hope I lose.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ronald wrote:</p>
<p>&#8220;I’m seeing among the conservative blogosphere a real lurch into paranoia – one blog I read certain all conservative blogs will be shut down under Obama, etc. While I understand the seeds of those feelings, we’ve got to keep out of the mania infecting so much of the left and the press these days. *Someone* has to keep a clear head.&#8221;</p>
<p>  You are more of an optimist than I think the facts allow.  Back in my college days I attended a few SDS meetings on campus (circa 1970).  What I learned is that these people seek power literally &#8220;by any means necessary&#8221;.  AND, they seek power in order to destroy the US.  They were quite upfront about their agenda in those meetings.  Don&#8217;t for a minute believe that these aging 60&#8217;s radicals have given up their agenda; just look at their lives since the &#8217;60&#8217;s.  Obama is their protege.  </p>
<p>  I don&#8217;t think I&#8217;m lurching into paranoia.  If ACORN, Arkansas sheriffs, what happened at the Dem caucuses to Hillary supporters, the attempt at silencing Kurtz on Chicago radio, etc. etc. is not enough to convince you that the Obama administration will not quickly seek to end all criticism of itself, then I don&#8217;t know what will.  Expect your rights (speech and arms) to be eroded via &#8220;hate crime&#8221; laws and &#8220;fairness doctrines&#8221;.  Some &#8220;emergency&#8221; will quickly become a &#8220;need&#8221; for expanded executive powers.  With Pelosi and Reid in charge of the congress&#8230; watch out, for then Obama will have carte blanche in any legislation proposed.  The Republicans will probably not even have enough votes to mount a filibuster.</p>
<p>  I hope we even have an election in 2010; maybe a real paranoid statement, but I&#8217;ll take wagers on it and hope I lose.</p>
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		<title>
		By: huxley		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2008/10/14/the-msm-still-controls-the-message-change-and-hope/#comment-88796</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[huxley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 15:42:51 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2008/10/14/the-msm-still-controls-the-message-change-and-hope/#comment-88796</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I was talking to my uncle on the phone the other day and we touched upon politics. After he ran down McCain and began holding up Obama, I said that I considered Obama the least qualified candidate in 100 years. 

He replied that Obama was more qualified than McCain. How so, I asked. My uncle said that he liked Obama more and he liked Obama&#039;s ideas. I said those aren&#039;t really qualifications, are they?

Yes, it&#039;s discouraging. We aren&#039;t electing a high school class president, but that seems to be the level on which many Obama supporters are voting.

I have yet to hear single argument to vote for Obama, as opposed to Generic Democrat, that wasn&#039;t based on emotional appeal or symbolism.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I was talking to my uncle on the phone the other day and we touched upon politics. After he ran down McCain and began holding up Obama, I said that I considered Obama the least qualified candidate in 100 years. </p>
<p>He replied that Obama was more qualified than McCain. How so, I asked. My uncle said that he liked Obama more and he liked Obama&#8217;s ideas. I said those aren&#8217;t really qualifications, are they?</p>
<p>Yes, it&#8217;s discouraging. We aren&#8217;t electing a high school class president, but that seems to be the level on which many Obama supporters are voting.</p>
<p>I have yet to hear single argument to vote for Obama, as opposed to Generic Democrat, that wasn&#8217;t based on emotional appeal or symbolism.</p>
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		<title>
		By: FredHjr		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2008/10/14/the-msm-still-controls-the-message-change-and-hope/#comment-88795</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[FredHjr]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 15:19:21 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2008/10/14/the-msm-still-controls-the-message-change-and-hope/#comment-88795</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Ronald Hayden,

About Obama&#039;s advisers on foreign policy...  they are all clearly anti-Israel.  Particularly Samantha Power.  That means that we are less likely to be realistic vis-a-vis the Iranian nuclear threat.  The signal that President Obama sends out to Islamic terrorist groups and states is that we will be more pliable.  That&#039;s extremely dangerous.  It will have consequences, besides throwing the Jews under the bus.

I have to state this.  And I would say it to fellow Christians (and I have) who have hostility towards Israel.  American Jews are being extremely selfish and even vicious in their apathy towards the existential threats their fellow Jews face in that tiny country.  I could cite a laundry list of prominent ethnic Jews in this country who either have outright hostility towards Israel or are apathetic to the existential threat.  SHAME ON ALL OF YOU.  You care more for the ideology of collectivism (a.k.a. &quot;social justice&quot;) than you do for real, breathing people who are daily bombed by rocket attacks and attempted suicide bombers.  Real people who are under threat of nuclear attack in the near or far future by a regime that has sworn to wipe you out.

In the end, the collectivists will throw us all under the bus in order to achieve their ends.  For the collectivist, the end always justifies the means.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ronald Hayden,</p>
<p>About Obama&#8217;s advisers on foreign policy&#8230;  they are all clearly anti-Israel.  Particularly Samantha Power.  That means that we are less likely to be realistic vis-a-vis the Iranian nuclear threat.  The signal that President Obama sends out to Islamic terrorist groups and states is that we will be more pliable.  That&#8217;s extremely dangerous.  It will have consequences, besides throwing the Jews under the bus.</p>
<p>I have to state this.  And I would say it to fellow Christians (and I have) who have hostility towards Israel.  American Jews are being extremely selfish and even vicious in their apathy towards the existential threats their fellow Jews face in that tiny country.  I could cite a laundry list of prominent ethnic Jews in this country who either have outright hostility towards Israel or are apathetic to the existential threat.  SHAME ON ALL OF YOU.  You care more for the ideology of collectivism (a.k.a. &#8220;social justice&#8221;) than you do for real, breathing people who are daily bombed by rocket attacks and attempted suicide bombers.  Real people who are under threat of nuclear attack in the near or far future by a regime that has sworn to wipe you out.</p>
<p>In the end, the collectivists will throw us all under the bus in order to achieve their ends.  For the collectivist, the end always justifies the means.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ronald Hayden		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2008/10/14/the-msm-still-controls-the-message-change-and-hope/#comment-88792</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ronald Hayden]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 14:55:57 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2008/10/14/the-msm-still-controls-the-message-change-and-hope/#comment-88792</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[GeoPal said:
&quot;If the majority of incumbents were to lose, I would be much more sanguine, even under an Obama administration.&quot;

I agree that having a Democratic Congress -- and one hungry to heavily tax, regulate, and generally bring an end to this free market crap is probably the most bothersome thing. Obama with a Republican Congress would be forced to actually live out some of his moderate rhetoric.

One problem with the idea of people turning out the incumbents: Apparently many Americans believe that Republicans still run Congress (something McCain hasn&#039;t addressed, to my knowledge). So they may well keep *their* Democrat in, hoping to &quot;return&quot; Democrats to power in Congress...

For what it&#039;s worth, I&#039;ve heard through the grapevine that when talked to in private, Obama knows his economics are all populist B.S. and there&#039;s some chance he&#039;ll at least not go all the way there. His selection of economic advisors seems to give some confirmation to that.

However, there is no reason I&#039;m aware to believe that he doesn&#039;t buy into the foreign policy he has laid out. I expect an anti-Israel policy (shrouded as moderate relativism between Israel and the Palestinians) and the invading of counties for any reason but our self-interest...at minimum, unless he manages to somehow bypass the &quot;Freshman curse&quot; for Presidents seen as militarily weak, he&#039;ll fall into the usual trap of invading somewhere just to show he can.

However, I should say: If he&#039;s elected, I sincerely hope he has a successful presidency. I suspect I will disagree with him a lot, and perhaps be profoundly disappointed in the direction we take, but I will not be dragged down into the derangement that overtook so many conservatives when Clinton was in office, and the left with Bush II, by condemning every action just because he is the one behind the desk and working up conspiracy theories and pushing for impeachment and all that crap.

Whoever is President, I *want* that person to succeed. If we engage in a war I disagree with, I at least want us to fulfill whatever obligations we&#039;ve undertaken; if he pulls out of Iraq, I dearly hope that Iraq finds a way to move on without us (but if it doesn&#039;t, I am not going to ignore the post-withdrawal results, as we did in Vietnam).

I&#039;m seeing among the conservative blogosphere a real lurch into paranoia -- one blog I read certain all conservative blogs will be shut down under Obama, etc. While I understand the seeds of those feelings, we&#039;ve got to keep out of the mania infecting so much of the left and the press these days.  *Someone* has to keep a clear head.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>GeoPal said:<br />
&#8220;If the majority of incumbents were to lose, I would be much more sanguine, even under an Obama administration.&#8221;</p>
<p>I agree that having a Democratic Congress &#8212; and one hungry to heavily tax, regulate, and generally bring an end to this free market crap is probably the most bothersome thing. Obama with a Republican Congress would be forced to actually live out some of his moderate rhetoric.</p>
<p>One problem with the idea of people turning out the incumbents: Apparently many Americans believe that Republicans still run Congress (something McCain hasn&#8217;t addressed, to my knowledge). So they may well keep *their* Democrat in, hoping to &#8220;return&#8221; Democrats to power in Congress&#8230;</p>
<p>For what it&#8217;s worth, I&#8217;ve heard through the grapevine that when talked to in private, Obama knows his economics are all populist B.S. and there&#8217;s some chance he&#8217;ll at least not go all the way there. His selection of economic advisors seems to give some confirmation to that.</p>
<p>However, there is no reason I&#8217;m aware to believe that he doesn&#8217;t buy into the foreign policy he has laid out. I expect an anti-Israel policy (shrouded as moderate relativism between Israel and the Palestinians) and the invading of counties for any reason but our self-interest&#8230;at minimum, unless he manages to somehow bypass the &#8220;Freshman curse&#8221; for Presidents seen as militarily weak, he&#8217;ll fall into the usual trap of invading somewhere just to show he can.</p>
<p>However, I should say: If he&#8217;s elected, I sincerely hope he has a successful presidency. I suspect I will disagree with him a lot, and perhaps be profoundly disappointed in the direction we take, but I will not be dragged down into the derangement that overtook so many conservatives when Clinton was in office, and the left with Bush II, by condemning every action just because he is the one behind the desk and working up conspiracy theories and pushing for impeachment and all that crap.</p>
<p>Whoever is President, I *want* that person to succeed. If we engage in a war I disagree with, I at least want us to fulfill whatever obligations we&#8217;ve undertaken; if he pulls out of Iraq, I dearly hope that Iraq finds a way to move on without us (but if it doesn&#8217;t, I am not going to ignore the post-withdrawal results, as we did in Vietnam).</p>
<p>I&#8217;m seeing among the conservative blogosphere a real lurch into paranoia &#8212; one blog I read certain all conservative blogs will be shut down under Obama, etc. While I understand the seeds of those feelings, we&#8217;ve got to keep out of the mania infecting so much of the left and the press these days.  *Someone* has to keep a clear head.</p>
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		<title>
		By: armchair pessimist		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2008/10/14/the-msm-still-controls-the-message-change-and-hope/#comment-88791</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[armchair pessimist]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 14:20:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2008/10/14/the-msm-still-controls-the-message-change-and-hope/#comment-88791</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[One reason why the South lost the first Civil War is that to win it she would have had to form a supreme national authority, the very thing  that she was fighting against.   To most of us here America means the right to be left alone; it&#039;s in our bones.  But that will lose us this war.   Is &quot;war&quot; kind of strong?  Maybe. But it&#039;s clear to me that, to swipe a line from the old westerns, this country ain&#039;t big enough for you and me.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One reason why the South lost the first Civil War is that to win it she would have had to form a supreme national authority, the very thing  that she was fighting against.   To most of us here America means the right to be left alone; it&#8217;s in our bones.  But that will lose us this war.   Is &#8220;war&#8221; kind of strong?  Maybe. But it&#8217;s clear to me that, to swipe a line from the old westerns, this country ain&#8217;t big enough for you and me.</p>
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		<title>
		By: GeoPal		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2008/10/14/the-msm-still-controls-the-message-change-and-hope/#comment-88790</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[GeoPal]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 15 Oct 2008 14:07:46 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2008/10/14/the-msm-still-controls-the-message-change-and-hope/#comment-88790</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[A good indication of what might be forthcoming would be the Congressional elections. If the electorate is sufficiently angry (financial scandals) they will dump incumbents by the boatload. If the majority of incumbents were to lose, I would be much more sanguine, even under an Obama administration. If not a majority but a historically large number of incumbents were to lose, there would still be a fighting chance. If the same rotted incumbents are returned to office, then it&#039;s over. The electorate will have gotten the government they deserve.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A good indication of what might be forthcoming would be the Congressional elections. If the electorate is sufficiently angry (financial scandals) they will dump incumbents by the boatload. If the majority of incumbents were to lose, I would be much more sanguine, even under an Obama administration. If not a majority but a historically large number of incumbents were to lose, there would still be a fighting chance. If the same rotted incumbents are returned to office, then it&#8217;s over. The electorate will have gotten the government they deserve.</p>
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