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	Comments on: The Big Fourteen	</title>
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	<link>https://thenewneo.com/2008/10/02/the-big-fourteen/</link>
	<description>A blog about political change, among other things</description>
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		<title>
		By: Vince P		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2008/10/02/the-big-fourteen/#comment-87692</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Vince P]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Oct 2008 16:28:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2008/10/02/the-big-fourteen/#comment-87692</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[One candidate NOT refuting another is not evidence of ignorance,  at first I thought it was too before someone told me that it&#039;s conisdered to be a weak technique to argue agaisnt your oppoinent&#039;s point.


I dotn know why this is, but that is a strategy that people who are in debates follow.

Plus weren&#039;t the ground rules of this debate very strict?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>One candidate NOT refuting another is not evidence of ignorance,  at first I thought it was too before someone told me that it&#8217;s conisdered to be a weak technique to argue agaisnt your oppoinent&#8217;s point.</p>
<p>I dotn know why this is, but that is a strategy that people who are in debates follow.</p>
<p>Plus weren&#8217;t the ground rules of this debate very strict?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Chris White		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2008/10/02/the-big-fourteen/#comment-87691</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris White]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Oct 2008 16:02:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2008/10/02/the-big-fourteen/#comment-87691</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[That Palin did not refute or rebut Biden on Lebanon, in context with Palin&#039;s public statements thus far on foreign affairs, suggests she was not sufficiently informed to do so. Frankly, I am no less dismayed by the idea of an uninformed (if capable of quickly learning sound bites that resonate with the base) governor being a heartbeat away from a 72 — 76 year old President with an extensive medical history than I am a blovating party hack senator being a heartbeat from a 48-52 year old President. 

However bizarre and fictitious one of the examples was, the underlying case Biden was making, that the Bush policies in the Middle East have been so intensely focused on a military &quot;solution&quot; in Iraq and so misguided there and elsewhere that many of the unintended consequences have been diametrically opposed to the best interests of the U.S., is, of course, subject to debate. Certainly I believe it to be the case. Palin offered little to convince me otherwise. Our policies toward Iran, for example, have strengthened their hardliners internally and increased their influence in the region, including their support of Hamas and Hezbollah. It is precisely our belligerent insistence on Iran accepting ultimatums before we&#039;ll negotiate with them that has lessened our influence and hurt the cause of internal moderates and secularists. We&#039;ve paid insufficient attention to Afghanistan for too long and are beginning to see the negative results. The Bush approach toward Pakistan has left us in a precarious position with one of the known nuclear ... excuse my elitist bias ... &#039;nuke-you-lar&#039; powers. Throughout the debate Palin offered little to suggest the McCain ticket would alter course in the region in any significant way. She made little more than the reflexive and ritualistic statements about Israel and jingoistic cracks about waving the white flag of surrender. 

Neither VP candidate inspires much confidence.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>That Palin did not refute or rebut Biden on Lebanon, in context with Palin&#8217;s public statements thus far on foreign affairs, suggests she was not sufficiently informed to do so. Frankly, I am no less dismayed by the idea of an uninformed (if capable of quickly learning sound bites that resonate with the base) governor being a heartbeat away from a 72 — 76 year old President with an extensive medical history than I am a blovating party hack senator being a heartbeat from a 48-52 year old President. </p>
<p>However bizarre and fictitious one of the examples was, the underlying case Biden was making, that the Bush policies in the Middle East have been so intensely focused on a military &#8220;solution&#8221; in Iraq and so misguided there and elsewhere that many of the unintended consequences have been diametrically opposed to the best interests of the U.S., is, of course, subject to debate. Certainly I believe it to be the case. Palin offered little to convince me otherwise. Our policies toward Iran, for example, have strengthened their hardliners internally and increased their influence in the region, including their support of Hamas and Hezbollah. It is precisely our belligerent insistence on Iran accepting ultimatums before we&#8217;ll negotiate with them that has lessened our influence and hurt the cause of internal moderates and secularists. We&#8217;ve paid insufficient attention to Afghanistan for too long and are beginning to see the negative results. The Bush approach toward Pakistan has left us in a precarious position with one of the known nuclear &#8230; excuse my elitist bias &#8230; &#8216;nuke-you-lar&#8217; powers. Throughout the debate Palin offered little to suggest the McCain ticket would alter course in the region in any significant way. She made little more than the reflexive and ritualistic statements about Israel and jingoistic cracks about waving the white flag of surrender. </p>
<p>Neither VP candidate inspires much confidence.</p>
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		<title>
		By: strcpy		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2008/10/02/the-big-fourteen/#comment-87669</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[strcpy]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 05 Oct 2008 04:09:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2008/10/02/the-big-fourteen/#comment-87669</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;And the especially troublesome one about Lebanon.&quot;

If Palin had made up a story with that much detail that *never* remotely occurred it would be running until the day of the election.

That Biden either lied that much or was just that mistaken is egregious. If it had just been an offhand remark or just a single statement - but the detail in what he described given that it never happened was astonishing. If he was simply mistaken - how can a person be *that* mistaken and not have severe mental issues is pretty much impossible.

The ones on McCains voting were bad, but not really that bad (sadly they are normal in politics), one can even say he made a mistake. It isn&#039;t that hard to find individual facts and get them messed up a little. However the Lebanon thing was, well, just incomprehensible in it&#039;s detail and having never remotely occurred (or come close to occurring).]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;And the especially troublesome one about Lebanon.&#8221;</p>
<p>If Palin had made up a story with that much detail that *never* remotely occurred it would be running until the day of the election.</p>
<p>That Biden either lied that much or was just that mistaken is egregious. If it had just been an offhand remark or just a single statement &#8211; but the detail in what he described given that it never happened was astonishing. If he was simply mistaken &#8211; how can a person be *that* mistaken and not have severe mental issues is pretty much impossible.</p>
<p>The ones on McCains voting were bad, but not really that bad (sadly they are normal in politics), one can even say he made a mistake. It isn&#8217;t that hard to find individual facts and get them messed up a little. However the Lebanon thing was, well, just incomprehensible in it&#8217;s detail and having never remotely occurred (or come close to occurring).</p>
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		<title>
		By: neo-neocon		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2008/10/02/the-big-fourteen/#comment-87641</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[neo-neocon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Oct 2008 20:44:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2008/10/02/the-big-fourteen/#comment-87641</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Chris White: if you don&#039;t see the differences between the representations of the two I have to say there&#039;s something wrong with your judgment.  A great many of Palin&#039;s misrepresentations are in matters of how taxes are evaluated, a notorious area where---depending on how people tote up the statistics---they can &quot;prove&quot; one thing or other.  This is done more or less equally by both sides and in nearly all elections.  Getting the name if a general slightly wrong is irrelevant to me no matter who does it, right or left.  And I read an article about the General&#039;s attitude towards the surge and Afghanistan that was quite congruent with her assertions about him.  Her surge/troop figures were not perfect, but they were not that far off, either.   

The point is that these are typical examples of political shadings and spin and interpretation.  Biden&#039;s misrepresentations, on the other hand, feature a surprising number of outright lies about things that can&#039;t be argued about.  How McCain voted.  And the especially troublesome one about Lebanon.  The most dreadful thing about that is that Biden is supposed to have worked in the field of foreign relations for umpteen million years (yes, that&#039;s hyporbole), that his error was egregious and disturbing, and that the media is so biased it didn&#039;t call him on it.  Do you think for a minute that if Palin had said a thing so stupid it would not be highlighted in nearly every paper?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris White: if you don&#8217;t see the differences between the representations of the two I have to say there&#8217;s something wrong with your judgment.  A great many of Palin&#8217;s misrepresentations are in matters of how taxes are evaluated, a notorious area where&#8212;depending on how people tote up the statistics&#8212;they can &#8220;prove&#8221; one thing or other.  This is done more or less equally by both sides and in nearly all elections.  Getting the name if a general slightly wrong is irrelevant to me no matter who does it, right or left.  And I read an article about the General&#8217;s attitude towards the surge and Afghanistan that was quite congruent with her assertions about him.  Her surge/troop figures were not perfect, but they were not that far off, either.   </p>
<p>The point is that these are typical examples of political shadings and spin and interpretation.  Biden&#8217;s misrepresentations, on the other hand, feature a surprising number of outright lies about things that can&#8217;t be argued about.  How McCain voted.  And the especially troublesome one about Lebanon.  The most dreadful thing about that is that Biden is supposed to have worked in the field of foreign relations for umpteen million years (yes, that&#8217;s hyporbole), that his error was egregious and disturbing, and that the media is so biased it didn&#8217;t call him on it.  Do you think for a minute that if Palin had said a thing so stupid it would not be highlighted in nearly every paper?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Truth		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2008/10/02/the-big-fourteen/#comment-87637</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Truth]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Oct 2008 19:34:29 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2008/10/02/the-big-fourteen/#comment-87637</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The histories of politicians laying in US are similar and close each to other.

But what more concerned here is those who don’t care the liars leading WH and believing in their lies and leading them as what happened with GWB who elected by voters twice to WH.

So its US voter misery not candidates as such.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The histories of politicians laying in US are similar and close each to other.</p>
<p>But what more concerned here is those who don’t care the liars leading WH and believing in their lies and leading them as what happened with GWB who elected by voters twice to WH.</p>
<p>So its US voter misery not candidates as such.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Chris White		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2008/10/02/the-big-fourteen/#comment-87625</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Chris White]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Oct 2008 17:29:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2008/10/02/the-big-fourteen/#comment-87625</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Palin wrong about troop levels in Iraq. Palin misrepresents tax impact on families making as little as $42,000. Palin wrong about McCain health care plans being &quot;budget neutral.&quot; Palin wrong about &quot;millions of small businesses&quot; that would face increased taxes under Obama&#039;s plans. Palin confused about name of newly appointed military leader of our forces in Afghanistan. Palin selectively distorts Gen. McKierman&#039;s statements regarding the efficacy of using surge principles in Afghanistan. Palin misrepresents Obama&#039;s statements regarding current tactics in Afghanistan. Palin overstates Obama and Biden&#039;s votes for tax increases. Palin overstates cost of oil imports. Palin misrepresents Obama&#039;s record on tax breaks for oil companies.


Biden wrong about McCain &#038; Obama voting the same on a given tax bill. Biden wrong about McCain not sitting down with leader of Spain. Biden wanting to have it both ways on &quot;clean coal&quot;. Biden misrepresents McCain&#039;s position on health care industry deregulation. Biden misrepresents McCain&#039;s tax breaks to oil companies. Biden overstates Iraq&#039;s budget surplus. Biden misrepresents McCain votes regarding alternative energy. Biden claims about &quot;U.S. &#038; France kicking Hezbollah out of Lebanon&quot; downright incomprehensible.

Palin no less than Biden dissembles and distorts to make political points. Either she, too, is &quot;a pathological, flagrant, unashamed liar of major proportions, or [her] ignorance is abysmal and unprecedented. Take your pick.&quot; Then again, perhaps she is just a major party candidate doing what major party candidates do while courting votes. As is Biden. 

It is only partisan nonsense to focus all the negative attention on either of these two politicians and all the positive spin on the other.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Palin wrong about troop levels in Iraq. Palin misrepresents tax impact on families making as little as $42,000. Palin wrong about McCain health care plans being &#8220;budget neutral.&#8221; Palin wrong about &#8220;millions of small businesses&#8221; that would face increased taxes under Obama&#8217;s plans. Palin confused about name of newly appointed military leader of our forces in Afghanistan. Palin selectively distorts Gen. McKierman&#8217;s statements regarding the efficacy of using surge principles in Afghanistan. Palin misrepresents Obama&#8217;s statements regarding current tactics in Afghanistan. Palin overstates Obama and Biden&#8217;s votes for tax increases. Palin overstates cost of oil imports. Palin misrepresents Obama&#8217;s record on tax breaks for oil companies.</p>
<p>Biden wrong about McCain &amp; Obama voting the same on a given tax bill. Biden wrong about McCain not sitting down with leader of Spain. Biden wanting to have it both ways on &#8220;clean coal&#8221;. Biden misrepresents McCain&#8217;s position on health care industry deregulation. Biden misrepresents McCain&#8217;s tax breaks to oil companies. Biden overstates Iraq&#8217;s budget surplus. Biden misrepresents McCain votes regarding alternative energy. Biden claims about &#8220;U.S. &amp; France kicking Hezbollah out of Lebanon&#8221; downright incomprehensible.</p>
<p>Palin no less than Biden dissembles and distorts to make political points. Either she, too, is &#8220;a pathological, flagrant, unashamed liar of major proportions, or [her] ignorance is abysmal and unprecedented. Take your pick.&#8221; Then again, perhaps she is just a major party candidate doing what major party candidates do while courting votes. As is Biden. </p>
<p>It is only partisan nonsense to focus all the negative attention on either of these two politicians and all the positive spin on the other.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ymarsakar		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2008/10/02/the-big-fourteen/#comment-87611</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ymarsakar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Oct 2008 15:12:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2008/10/02/the-big-fourteen/#comment-87611</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;a href=&quot;http://ymarsakar.wordpress.com/2008/10/04/semi-live-blogging-of-vp-debate/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;My brief analysis of the debate as I watched it on Youtube is here&lt;/a&gt;

I haven&#039;t finished with all the parts, I stopped at the Afghanistan question.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><a href="http://ymarsakar.wordpress.com/2008/10/04/semi-live-blogging-of-vp-debate/" rel="nofollow">My brief analysis of the debate as I watched it on Youtube is here</a></p>
<p>I haven&#8217;t finished with all the parts, I stopped at the Afghanistan question.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ymarsakar		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2008/10/02/the-big-fourteen/#comment-87610</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ymarsakar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Oct 2008 15:09:36 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2008/10/02/the-big-fourteen/#comment-87610</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;b&gt;Will I get jumped on as a socialist stooge&lt;/b&gt;

Your judgment is flawed. Given that premise, what else do you think matters? Socialist stooge? A person of good judgment that was a socialist stooge would be dangerous and not a stooge for much longer.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>Will I get jumped on as a socialist stooge</b></p>
<p>Your judgment is flawed. Given that premise, what else do you think matters? Socialist stooge? A person of good judgment that was a socialist stooge would be dangerous and not a stooge for much longer.</p>
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		<title>
		By: neo-neocon		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2008/10/02/the-big-fourteen/#comment-87607</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[neo-neocon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Oct 2008 14:56:35 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2008/10/02/the-big-fourteen/#comment-87607</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Chris White: no, you won&#039;t.  But if you are suggesting that all distortions and &quot;lies&quot; are equal, you will meet with disagreement.  There are differences of quality and quantity.  

And the lie supposed &quot;expert on foreign policy&quot; Biden told about Lebanon is such a whopper it is stunning, as well as his flat-out lies over and over about McCain&#039;s votes.  Very material errora/lies, and not open to debate or nuance.  Either the man is a pathological, flagrant, unashamed liar of major proportions, or his ignorance is abysmal and unprecedented.  Take your pick.

And the MSM ignores it.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Chris White: no, you won&#8217;t.  But if you are suggesting that all distortions and &#8220;lies&#8221; are equal, you will meet with disagreement.  There are differences of quality and quantity.  </p>
<p>And the lie supposed &#8220;expert on foreign policy&#8221; Biden told about Lebanon is such a whopper it is stunning, as well as his flat-out lies over and over about McCain&#8217;s votes.  Very material errora/lies, and not open to debate or nuance.  Either the man is a pathological, flagrant, unashamed liar of major proportions, or his ignorance is abysmal and unprecedented.  Take your pick.</p>
<p>And the MSM ignores it.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Tatyana		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2008/10/02/the-big-fourteen/#comment-87600</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tatyana]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 04 Oct 2008 13:58:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2008/10/02/the-big-fourteen/#comment-87600</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[On a second thought - my dissatisfaction possibly is misplaced and should be directed not at Palin but at McCain.
Oh well, he&#039;s not Thompson, that&#039;s for sure.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>On a second thought &#8211; my dissatisfaction possibly is misplaced and should be directed not at Palin but at McCain.<br />
Oh well, he&#8217;s not Thompson, that&#8217;s for sure.</p>
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