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	Comments on: The Palestinians: when does a victim stop being a victim?	</title>
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	<link>https://thenewneo.com/2007/05/22/the-palestinians-when-does-a-victim-stop-being-a-victim/</link>
	<description>A blog about political change, among other things</description>
	<lastBuildDate>Tue, 29 May 2007 12:50:44 +0000</lastBuildDate>
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		<title>
		By: sergey		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2007/05/22/the-palestinians-when-does-a-victim-stop-being-a-victim/#comment-35738</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[sergey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 May 2007 12:50:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2007/05/22/the-palestinians-when-does-a-victim-stop-being-a-victim/#comment-35738</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Short answer: Never.
More long answer:
Fist of all, this &quot;victim&quot; simply does not exist. There is no mention of &quot;Palestinians&quot; in 1930s, 40s or 50s books or articles - only &quot;Arabs&quot; or &quot;Jews&quot; living on territory of British Mandat. The first notion of Palis as a nation appeared in Arafat speeches declaring PLO ambitions. There is no other reason d&#039;etre for this nation except Israel destruction. So when Israel wants to negotiate peace with Palestinians, they really want this pseudo-nation to destroy the only foundation of its existence: this is an insane proposition. No Palestinian politician can hope to survive the deal.
Beside this, there are two additional reasons why peaceful co-existence of Israel and Palestine state is impossible now and forever. First, any tribal society is inherently incapable to built and maintain state. There can be only chavos of rival gangs. Tribal territories can be governed only by external force, as in other Arab countries where ruling families belong to other sect or ethnicity than their subjects. Second, there simply too little space for two nations.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Short answer: Never.<br />
More long answer:<br />
Fist of all, this &#8220;victim&#8221; simply does not exist. There is no mention of &#8220;Palestinians&#8221; in 1930s, 40s or 50s books or articles &#8211; only &#8220;Arabs&#8221; or &#8220;Jews&#8221; living on territory of British Mandat. The first notion of Palis as a nation appeared in Arafat speeches declaring PLO ambitions. There is no other reason d&#8217;etre for this nation except Israel destruction. So when Israel wants to negotiate peace with Palestinians, they really want this pseudo-nation to destroy the only foundation of its existence: this is an insane proposition. No Palestinian politician can hope to survive the deal.<br />
Beside this, there are two additional reasons why peaceful co-existence of Israel and Palestine state is impossible now and forever. First, any tribal society is inherently incapable to built and maintain state. There can be only chavos of rival gangs. Tribal territories can be governed only by external force, as in other Arab countries where ruling families belong to other sect or ethnicity than their subjects. Second, there simply too little space for two nations.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Barry Meislin		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2007/05/22/the-palestinians-when-does-a-victim-stop-being-a-victim/#comment-35737</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Barry Meislin]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 29 May 2007 09:06:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2007/05/22/the-palestinians-when-does-a-victim-stop-being-a-victim/#comment-35737</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[davidwarrenonline.com&lt;a href=&quot;http://www.davidwarrenonline.com/index.php?id=731&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt; Deja vu all over again?&lt;/a&gt;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>davidwarrenonline.com<a href="http://www.davidwarrenonline.com/index.php?id=731" rel="nofollow"> Deja vu all over again?</a></p>
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		<title>
		By: stumbley		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2007/05/22/the-palestinians-when-does-a-victim-stop-being-a-victim/#comment-35639</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[stumbley]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 May 2007 14:46:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2007/05/22/the-palestinians-when-does-a-victim-stop-being-a-victim/#comment-35639</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Hey, vinnie:

&quot;so long as the Arabs fight tribe against tribe, so long will they be a little people, a silly people, greedy, barbarous, and cruel&quot;

True then, true now, Pali propaganda notwithstanding.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey, vinnie:</p>
<p>&#8220;so long as the Arabs fight tribe against tribe, so long will they be a little people, a silly people, greedy, barbarous, and cruel&#8221;</p>
<p>True then, true now, Pali propaganda notwithstanding.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Vicenza		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2007/05/22/the-palestinians-when-does-a-victim-stop-being-a-victim/#comment-35636</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Vicenza]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 May 2007 14:39:12 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2007/05/22/the-palestinians-when-does-a-victim-stop-being-a-victim/#comment-35636</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[How many of you ever heard these before - let alone let it register in your undeveloped minds what they mean.

&quot;Two time Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin (1974 - 77 and 1992 - 95) told French newspaper Le Monde in February, 1968: &quot;I do not believe Nasser wanted war.  The two divisions which he sent into Sinai on May 14 would not have been enough to unleash an offense against Israel.  He knew it and we knew it.&quot;

 

General Mordechai Hod, Commander of the Israeli Air Force during the Six-Day War said in 1978: &quot;Sixteen years of planning had gone into those initial eighty minutes.  We lived with the plan, we slept on the plan, we ate the plan.  Constantly we perfected it.&quot;

 

General Haim Barlev, Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) Chief told Ma&#039;ariv in April, 1972: &quot;We were not threatened with genocide on the eve of the six-day war, and we had never thought of such a possibility.&quot;

 

Other Israeli leaders and generals voiced the same sentiment that in June, 1967 Israel was under no threat, yet preemptively undertook a war of aggression falsely telling the world it had no other choice.  It had a clear one.  It could have chosen peace, but didn&#039;t and never did earlier or since to the present because discretionary aggressive wars of choice serve Israeli interests as they do its US imperial partner.&#039;

Like your fantasy about Israel giving up Gaza - the June war is a creation of Jewish right wing propaganda.

Lies.

Is that what they teach you in therapy Neo?  To be a liar?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>How many of you ever heard these before &#8211; let alone let it register in your undeveloped minds what they mean.</p>
<p>&#8220;Two time Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin (1974 &#8211; 77 and 1992 &#8211; 95) told French newspaper Le Monde in February, 1968: &#8220;I do not believe Nasser wanted war.  The two divisions which he sent into Sinai on May 14 would not have been enough to unleash an offense against Israel.  He knew it and we knew it.&#8221;</p>
<p>General Mordechai Hod, Commander of the Israeli Air Force during the Six-Day War said in 1978: &#8220;Sixteen years of planning had gone into those initial eighty minutes.  We lived with the plan, we slept on the plan, we ate the plan.  Constantly we perfected it.&#8221;</p>
<p>General Haim Barlev, Israeli Defense Forces (IDF) Chief told Ma&#8217;ariv in April, 1972: &#8220;We were not threatened with genocide on the eve of the six-day war, and we had never thought of such a possibility.&#8221;</p>
<p>Other Israeli leaders and generals voiced the same sentiment that in June, 1967 Israel was under no threat, yet preemptively undertook a war of aggression falsely telling the world it had no other choice.  It had a clear one.  It could have chosen peace, but didn&#8217;t and never did earlier or since to the present because discretionary aggressive wars of choice serve Israeli interests as they do its US imperial partner.&#8217;</p>
<p>Like your fantasy about Israel giving up Gaza &#8211; the June war is a creation of Jewish right wing propaganda.</p>
<p>Lies.</p>
<p>Is that what they teach you in therapy Neo?  To be a liar?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Vicenza		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2007/05/22/the-palestinians-when-does-a-victim-stop-being-a-victim/#comment-35634</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Vicenza]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 25 May 2007 14:32:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2007/05/22/the-palestinians-when-does-a-victim-stop-being-a-victim/#comment-35634</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Daniel - respectfully, Israel never gave up Gaza.

You are terribly mistaken - but that what you get for reading Daniel Pipes(the &#039;inventor&#039; of the pathetic &quot;steal more land for peace&quot; abomination you call a &#039;plan&#039;).

When will you people start looking at what the the facts are instead of rubbishing them by claiming them to be some leftist ideological construct?

But then you support a fantasy that a withdrawal from a devasting war will make us worse off, so there you go...]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Daniel &#8211; respectfully, Israel never gave up Gaza.</p>
<p>You are terribly mistaken &#8211; but that what you get for reading Daniel Pipes(the &#8216;inventor&#8217; of the pathetic &#8220;steal more land for peace&#8221; abomination you call a &#8216;plan&#8217;).</p>
<p>When will you people start looking at what the the facts are instead of rubbishing them by claiming them to be some leftist ideological construct?</p>
<p>But then you support a fantasy that a withdrawal from a devasting war will make us worse off, so there you go&#8230;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ymarsakar		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2007/05/22/the-palestinians-when-does-a-victim-stop-being-a-victim/#comment-35611</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ymarsakar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2007 23:56:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2007/05/22/the-palestinians-when-does-a-victim-stop-being-a-victim/#comment-35611</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;b&gt;“Palestinian refugee camps” are not “camps” as we might imagine them, but long-established neighborhoods and even towns, with permanent buildings and services. The often look crappy indeed, but no more crappy that many of the neighborhoods I’ve seen in Jeddah, Riyadh, or Quassim while on business in Saudi Arabia.&lt;/b&gt;

When I was first using Google Earth, I rotated the globe around to look and zoom in on Israel. And it was Fauking Insane. Because there was a like pocking line that was consistent with the Israeli &#039;wall&#039;, and on the Israeli side it was green and ordered in squares, lots, and lines. On the Palestinian side, it looked like fracking Mad Max, all a shambles with this pukish orangish earthy color spread around all over. Talk about a bunch of savages. When you see someone that doesn&#039;t take care of their homes and where they live, you know there&#039;s something chaotically wrong with those people.

I did the same thing with Mexico you know, at the southern border. Totally fracking same difference.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><b>“Palestinian refugee camps” are not “camps” as we might imagine them, but long-established neighborhoods and even towns, with permanent buildings and services. The often look crappy indeed, but no more crappy that many of the neighborhoods I’ve seen in Jeddah, Riyadh, or Quassim while on business in Saudi Arabia.</b></p>
<p>When I was first using Google Earth, I rotated the globe around to look and zoom in on Israel. And it was Fauking Insane. Because there was a like pocking line that was consistent with the Israeli &#8216;wall&#8217;, and on the Israeli side it was green and ordered in squares, lots, and lines. On the Palestinian side, it looked like fracking Mad Max, all a shambles with this pukish orangish earthy color spread around all over. Talk about a bunch of savages. When you see someone that doesn&#8217;t take care of their homes and where they live, you know there&#8217;s something chaotically wrong with those people.</p>
<p>I did the same thing with Mexico you know, at the southern border. Totally fracking same difference.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Daniel in Brookline		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2007/05/22/the-palestinians-when-does-a-victim-stop-being-a-victim/#comment-35603</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Daniel in Brookline]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2007 17:24:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2007/05/22/the-palestinians-when-does-a-victim-stop-being-a-victim/#comment-35603</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[A good post, Neo!  Please forgive me for nitpicking:

&lt;i&gt;and so King Hussein saw fit to do a little housecleaning–to the tune of approximately seven to eight thousand Palestinian dead–in September of 1970, eliminating the Palestinian presence there in order to preserve his own rule.&lt;/i&gt;

Hussein didn&#039;t eliminate the Palestinian &lt;i&gt;presence&lt;/i&gt; from Jordanian society; more than half of Jordan&#039;s population today identifies itself as Palestinian.  (Jordan is the one exception, an Arab country willing to grant citizenship to Palestinians.)

What Hussein did in September 1970 was to eliminate Palestinians from &lt;i&gt;leadership roles&lt;/i&gt; in Jordanian society, particularly in the Jordanian military.  (The PLO had infiltrated the Jordanian army to such a degree that a coup was dangerously likely.)

- - - -

When Israel withdrew completely from the Gaza Strip in 2005, this was, in many ways, a barometer of Palestinian intentions (just as the total withdrawal from Lebanon in 2000 was).  And the results were the same in both cases.  Hizbullah found a flimsy pretext (the Shebaa farms, which even the UN agrees were never Lebanese) to continue terrorism; and the Gazans continue to &lt;a href=&quot;http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=25496_Video-_Palestinian_Terror_Rockets_Up_Close&#038;only &quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;fire Qassam rockets at Israeli towns&lt;/a&gt;, protesting an &quot;occupation&quot; that no longer exists for them.

Personally, I wish it were possible to seal off Gaza completely -- no incoming cash, weapons, Israeli electricity or fuel, and so forth -- and let them stew until the terror attacks from Gaza cease.  But that would be utterly inhumane; Gaza doesn&#039;t have anything like the infrastructure to be self-sufficient.  (Heck, they haven&#039;t even built decent &lt;a href=&quot;http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=24928_A_River_of_Sewage_in_Gaza&#038;only&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;sewers&lt;/a&gt; for themselves.)

A better idea -- which &lt;a href=&quot;http://daniel-in-brookline.blogspot.com/2005/08/keep-eye-open-for-gloria-salt.html&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;I advanced&lt;/a&gt; at the time of the Gaza withdrawal, and is getting somewhat stale now -- would be for Israel to announce, as of a particular date, that it will start taking back Gaza, a piece at a time -- one square kilometer for each rocket or terrorist attack launched against Israel from Gaza.  The Gaza Strip is 360 square kilometers in size; I suspect they&#039;d get the point rather quickly.

(Heck, with the bloodshed going on there now, it&#039;s not too farfetched that some small Gaza villages might clamor &quot;us first, us first!&quot;...)

respectfully,
Daniel in Brookline]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A good post, Neo!  Please forgive me for nitpicking:</p>
<p><i>and so King Hussein saw fit to do a little housecleaning–to the tune of approximately seven to eight thousand Palestinian dead–in September of 1970, eliminating the Palestinian presence there in order to preserve his own rule.</i></p>
<p>Hussein didn&#8217;t eliminate the Palestinian <i>presence</i> from Jordanian society; more than half of Jordan&#8217;s population today identifies itself as Palestinian.  (Jordan is the one exception, an Arab country willing to grant citizenship to Palestinians.)</p>
<p>What Hussein did in September 1970 was to eliminate Palestinians from <i>leadership roles</i> in Jordanian society, particularly in the Jordanian military.  (The PLO had infiltrated the Jordanian army to such a degree that a coup was dangerously likely.)</p>
<p>&#8211; &#8211; &#8211; &#8211;</p>
<p>When Israel withdrew completely from the Gaza Strip in 2005, this was, in many ways, a barometer of Palestinian intentions (just as the total withdrawal from Lebanon in 2000 was).  And the results were the same in both cases.  Hizbullah found a flimsy pretext (the Shebaa farms, which even the UN agrees were never Lebanese) to continue terrorism; and the Gazans continue to <a href="http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=25496_Video-_Palestinian_Terror_Rockets_Up_Close&amp;only " rel="nofollow">fire Qassam rockets at Israeli towns</a>, protesting an &#8220;occupation&#8221; that no longer exists for them.</p>
<p>Personally, I wish it were possible to seal off Gaza completely &#8212; no incoming cash, weapons, Israeli electricity or fuel, and so forth &#8212; and let them stew until the terror attacks from Gaza cease.  But that would be utterly inhumane; Gaza doesn&#8217;t have anything like the infrastructure to be self-sufficient.  (Heck, they haven&#8217;t even built decent <a href="http://littlegreenfootballs.com/weblog/?entry=24928_A_River_of_Sewage_in_Gaza&amp;only" rel="nofollow">sewers</a> for themselves.)</p>
<p>A better idea &#8212; which <a href="http://daniel-in-brookline.blogspot.com/2005/08/keep-eye-open-for-gloria-salt.html" rel="nofollow">I advanced</a> at the time of the Gaza withdrawal, and is getting somewhat stale now &#8212; would be for Israel to announce, as of a particular date, that it will start taking back Gaza, a piece at a time &#8212; one square kilometer for each rocket or terrorist attack launched against Israel from Gaza.  The Gaza Strip is 360 square kilometers in size; I suspect they&#8217;d get the point rather quickly.</p>
<p>(Heck, with the bloodshed going on there now, it&#8217;s not too farfetched that some small Gaza villages might clamor &#8220;us first, us first!&#8221;&#8230;)</p>
<p>respectfully,<br />
Daniel in Brookline</p>
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		<title>
		By: Tom Grey - Liberty Dad		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2007/05/22/the-palestinians-when-does-a-victim-stop-being-a-victim/#comment-35602</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Tom Grey - Liberty Dad]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2007 16:47:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2007/05/22/the-palestinians-when-does-a-victim-stop-being-a-victim/#comment-35602</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Sergey, I&#039;m so sorry I must agree with you.

Further, I fear that Tel Aviv will be nuked before the Palestinians are successful in replacing hatred.

Yet I offer another idea -- Cantonization.  Use Switzerland as the model, and make Gaza one canton (or two?), with other cantons on the West Bank.
Who is the President of Switzerland (perhaps the most successful European country per capita)?
Who cares?  Almost no power ... position rotates.

The US could have, and probably should have, pushed cantonization in Iraq; and ex-Yugoslavia; and even today in Sudan AND Southern Sudan.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sergey, I&#8217;m so sorry I must agree with you.</p>
<p>Further, I fear that Tel Aviv will be nuked before the Palestinians are successful in replacing hatred.</p>
<p>Yet I offer another idea &#8212; Cantonization.  Use Switzerland as the model, and make Gaza one canton (or two?), with other cantons on the West Bank.<br />
Who is the President of Switzerland (perhaps the most successful European country per capita)?<br />
Who cares?  Almost no power &#8230; position rotates.</p>
<p>The US could have, and probably should have, pushed cantonization in Iraq; and ex-Yugoslavia; and even today in Sudan AND Southern Sudan.</p>
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		<title>
		By: sergey		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2007/05/22/the-palestinians-when-does-a-victim-stop-being-a-victim/#comment-35600</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[sergey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2007 10:35:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2007/05/22/the-palestinians-when-does-a-victim-stop-being-a-victim/#comment-35600</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Palestine society is wrecked now beyond repair, just as Germany under Nazi was, and can be restored to something workable only by some external force. A program which includes long-time occupation, quelling of all possible resistance by harsh measures, including public executions and shooting down rioting mobs, is needed, with following denazification and re-education of large masses of population. But just now I see no external force capable and willing to do all this. As in case with Germany, this will and capacity can emerge only after hot world war with dozen millions of victums, which, I believe, is unavoidable.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Palestine society is wrecked now beyond repair, just as Germany under Nazi was, and can be restored to something workable only by some external force. A program which includes long-time occupation, quelling of all possible resistance by harsh measures, including public executions and shooting down rioting mobs, is needed, with following denazification and re-education of large masses of population. But just now I see no external force capable and willing to do all this. As in case with Germany, this will and capacity can emerge only after hot world war with dozen millions of victums, which, I believe, is unavoidable.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2007/05/22/the-palestinians-when-does-a-victim-stop-being-a-victim/#comment-35598</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtle]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 24 May 2007 10:23:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2007/05/22/the-palestinians-when-does-a-victim-stop-being-a-victim/#comment-35598</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[The following letter was published in today&#039;s New York Times. The Democrats are basically spineless. (No wonder -- they are just as much in the pocket of Big Business as Republicans are, too):

&lt;i&gt;To the Editor:

The assertion that the Democrats cannot overcome a presidential veto does not excuse their failure to set withdrawal dates. All financing for the war originates in the House; if the Democrats had tied financing of the war to a withdrawal timetable, a presidential veto would mean that the president had no money to fight the war.

The House Democrats had the power to cut off or restrict financing; they failed to exercise it. The setting of benchmarks for the Iraqi government in the proposed bill is meaningless. The determination of whether Iraq meets those benchmarks is up to the president. Does anyone doubt what his determination will be?

I have seen this before. Year after year in the 1980s, Congress mandated that the government of El Salvador meet certain human rights requirements and left the determination to the president. Year after year, despite no real improvement in human rights, the president dutifully certified the contrary, and the aid to El Salvador continued.

Sadly, if the Democrats continue on their current course, the war will be with us for a very long time.

Michael Ratner
New York, May 23, 2007

The writer is president of the Center for Constitutional Rights.&lt;/i&gt;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The following letter was published in today&#8217;s New York Times. The Democrats are basically spineless. (No wonder &#8212; they are just as much in the pocket of Big Business as Republicans are, too):</p>
<p><i>To the Editor:</p>
<p>The assertion that the Democrats cannot overcome a presidential veto does not excuse their failure to set withdrawal dates. All financing for the war originates in the House; if the Democrats had tied financing of the war to a withdrawal timetable, a presidential veto would mean that the president had no money to fight the war.</p>
<p>The House Democrats had the power to cut off or restrict financing; they failed to exercise it. The setting of benchmarks for the Iraqi government in the proposed bill is meaningless. The determination of whether Iraq meets those benchmarks is up to the president. Does anyone doubt what his determination will be?</p>
<p>I have seen this before. Year after year in the 1980s, Congress mandated that the government of El Salvador meet certain human rights requirements and left the determination to the president. Year after year, despite no real improvement in human rights, the president dutifully certified the contrary, and the aid to El Salvador continued.</p>
<p>Sadly, if the Democrats continue on their current course, the war will be with us for a very long time.</p>
<p>Michael Ratner<br />
New York, May 23, 2007</p>
<p>The writer is president of the Center for Constitutional Rights.</i></p>
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