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	Comments on: Iraq: lost in translation?	</title>
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	<link>https://thenewneo.com/2007/01/16/iraq-lost-in-translation/</link>
	<description>A blog about political change, among other things</description>
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		<title>
		By: Moose		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2007/01/16/iraq-lost-in-translation/#comment-20611</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Moose]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Jan 2007 05:19:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2007/01/iraq-lost-in-translation.html#comment-20611</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Anon,
Yes I do read INF, Yon and Roggio every day. I also watch the weekly Military debreifing from Baghdad by MG Caldwell on the Pentagon Channel. I also read  the MNF breifings put  out daily. 
Do you know how many American troops there are in Fullujah today as compared to 2 years ago? It will startle you.
Do you know about what happen to the terrorist group called the Council yesterday ?
I suggest that you go to these sights as well as reading the MSM. You will be better informed. I presume you do want to get a complete picture of the situation , but hey if in your mind is made up so be it. 
Eating soup with a knife is not for you.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Anon,<br />
Yes I do read INF, Yon and Roggio every day. I also watch the weekly Military debreifing from Baghdad by MG Caldwell on the Pentagon Channel. I also read  the MNF breifings put  out daily.<br />
Do you know how many American troops there are in Fullujah today as compared to 2 years ago? It will startle you.<br />
Do you know about what happen to the terrorist group called the Council yesterday ?<br />
I suggest that you go to these sights as well as reading the MSM. You will be better informed. I presume you do want to get a complete picture of the situation , but hey if in your mind is made up so be it.<br />
Eating soup with a knife is not for you.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Y		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2007/01/16/iraq-lost-in-translation/#comment-20610</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Y]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Jan 2007 04:15:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2007/01/iraq-lost-in-translation.html#comment-20610</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[There is a reason why Sally likes arguing with Anon. But I tend to think that is a mystery best left unresolved.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>There is a reason why Sally likes arguing with Anon. But I tend to think that is a mystery best left unresolved.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Sally		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2007/01/16/iraq-lost-in-translation/#comment-20608</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sally]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Jan 2007 01:52:23 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2007/01/iraq-lost-in-translation.html#comment-20608</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;I&#039;m assuming the media is not making up it&#039;s stories of violence.&lt;/i&gt;

Again, an interesting testament of faith in media that have been unable to back up particular tales of violence, and have been caught doctoring evidence. 

Nevertheless, I don&#039;t claim access to Truth either, and have to piece things together as best I can, as we all do, or should. I certainly agree that we should not simply throw away any report that goes against our assumptions, hopes or wishes -- nor do I think we should simply accept any report that supports the same. Regardless of politics, skepticism is a helpful starting point.

Oh, and it&#039;s a bit rich to see the frequently arrogant and insulting &quot;anon&quot; whine now about incivility. He set the tone.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>I&#8217;m assuming the media is not making up it&#8217;s stories of violence.</i></p>
<p>Again, an interesting testament of faith in media that have been unable to back up particular tales of violence, and have been caught doctoring evidence. </p>
<p>Nevertheless, I don&#8217;t claim access to Truth either, and have to piece things together as best I can, as we all do, or should. I certainly agree that we should not simply throw away any report that goes against our assumptions, hopes or wishes &#8212; nor do I think we should simply accept any report that supports the same. Regardless of politics, skepticism is a helpful starting point.</p>
<p>Oh, and it&#8217;s a bit rich to see the frequently arrogant and insulting &#8220;anon&#8221; whine now about incivility. He set the tone.</p>
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		<title>
		By: troutsky		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2007/01/16/iraq-lost-in-translation/#comment-20609</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[troutsky]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 19 Jan 2007 00:11:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2007/01/iraq-lost-in-translation.html#comment-20609</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Unlike Sally, I don&#039;t have access to the Truth and I admit my ideological bias but still use violent unrest as my metric of relative stability. Even if every child was going to school and electricity was full time and we had full employment in my town, if we woke up to find sixty people tortured to death laying in the river and two carbombs went off downtown I would say there were deep societal problems. Even IF a hospital was being built. I&#039;m assuming the media is not making up it&#039;s stories of violence.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Unlike Sally, I don&#8217;t have access to the Truth and I admit my ideological bias but still use violent unrest as my metric of relative stability. Even if every child was going to school and electricity was full time and we had full employment in my town, if we woke up to find sixty people tortured to death laying in the river and two carbombs went off downtown I would say there were deep societal problems. Even IF a hospital was being built. I&#8217;m assuming the media is not making up it&#8217;s stories of violence.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Anon		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2007/01/16/iraq-lost-in-translation/#comment-20607</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jan 2007 23:24:09 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2007/01/iraq-lost-in-translation.html#comment-20607</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Since Sally insists on being uncivil, I&#039;ll extend my inquiry to the rest of you - how do you know which sources of information about Iraq to trust?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Since Sally insists on being uncivil, I&#8217;ll extend my inquiry to the rest of you &#8211; how do you know which sources of information about Iraq to trust?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Sally		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2007/01/16/iraq-lost-in-translation/#comment-20606</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sally]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jan 2007 22:03:48 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2007/01/iraq-lost-in-translation.html#comment-20606</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[At this level, anon, we&#039;re not really talking about epistemology, we&#039;re simply talking about the notion of critical intelligence. I could try to run through some techniques and approaches involved in this, particularly as it applies to the problem of biased information sources, but you sound like you at least have access to a college campus, and I&#039;m sure you can find some introductory sessions on it there. As I&#039;ve said before, good luck!]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>At this level, anon, we&#8217;re not really talking about epistemology, we&#8217;re simply talking about the notion of critical intelligence. I could try to run through some techniques and approaches involved in this, particularly as it applies to the problem of biased information sources, but you sound like you at least have access to a college campus, and I&#8217;m sure you can find some introductory sessions on it there. As I&#8217;ve said before, good luck!</p>
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		<title>
		By: Anon		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2007/01/16/iraq-lost-in-translation/#comment-20605</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jan 2007 21:54:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2007/01/iraq-lost-in-translation.html#comment-20605</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Ok, I&#039;m stumped.  If distortion prevents you from receiving accurate information about Iraq from the media, how do you get accurate information about Iraq?  Are your sources not distorting that information?  How do you know that they&#039;re not distorting that information?  How did you identify and decide to trust them?  These are all utterly honest questions - let&#039;s assume I&#039;m a curious stranger who wants to know what&#039;s really happening in Iraq, is unsure of how to get that information, and is a tabula rasa with regards to potential sources of information - I recognize that all are potential distorters, and am unsure of which to trust and how to go about doing so.  What should I do?

For the record, I never sought information to flatter my preconceptions.  I, foolishly, believed in 2003 that invading Iraq would be a good idea, and expected information coming from Iraq to confirm this belief.  When it didn&#039;t, I had to, over a period of months (maybe years?) revise what I believed.  So I realize that it may seem obvious that people who disagree with you believe the news because it flatters their preconceptions, while you are much more intellectually rigorous, that&#039;s not always the case.  

So I wonder, in all genuine curiosity about your epistemology: how do you know what you know about Iraq, and how do you know you know what you know?]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ok, I&#8217;m stumped.  If distortion prevents you from receiving accurate information about Iraq from the media, how do you get accurate information about Iraq?  Are your sources not distorting that information?  How do you know that they&#8217;re not distorting that information?  How did you identify and decide to trust them?  These are all utterly honest questions &#8211; let&#8217;s assume I&#8217;m a curious stranger who wants to know what&#8217;s really happening in Iraq, is unsure of how to get that information, and is a tabula rasa with regards to potential sources of information &#8211; I recognize that all are potential distorters, and am unsure of which to trust and how to go about doing so.  What should I do?</p>
<p>For the record, I never sought information to flatter my preconceptions.  I, foolishly, believed in 2003 that invading Iraq would be a good idea, and expected information coming from Iraq to confirm this belief.  When it didn&#8217;t, I had to, over a period of months (maybe years?) revise what I believed.  So I realize that it may seem obvious that people who disagree with you believe the news because it flatters their preconceptions, while you are much more intellectually rigorous, that&#8217;s not always the case.  </p>
<p>So I wonder, in all genuine curiosity about your epistemology: how do you know what you know about Iraq, and how do you know you know what you know?</p>
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		<title>
		By: Sally		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2007/01/16/iraq-lost-in-translation/#comment-20604</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Sally]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jan 2007 21:42:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2007/01/iraq-lost-in-translation.html#comment-20604</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&lt;i&gt;...this distortion does not invalidate ideologically unpleasant information.&lt;/i&gt;

No. Like a stuck clock, occasionally anon says something more or less correct. But there&#039;s a converse to this proposition as well -- this distortion (i.e., systemic bias in the media) does not &lt;i&gt;validate&lt;/i&gt; ideologically &lt;i&gt;pleasant&lt;/i&gt; information, either. In fact, a critical intelligence would want to be cautious about accepting general impressions  that flatter one&#039;s preconceptions anyway, and all the more so when the impressions are conveyed by media already biased in one&#039;s favor.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p><i>&#8230;this distortion does not invalidate ideologically unpleasant information.</i></p>
<p>No. Like a stuck clock, occasionally anon says something more or less correct. But there&#8217;s a converse to this proposition as well &#8212; this distortion (i.e., systemic bias in the media) does not <i>validate</i> ideologically <i>pleasant</i> information, either. In fact, a critical intelligence would want to be cautious about accepting general impressions  that flatter one&#8217;s preconceptions anyway, and all the more so when the impressions are conveyed by media already biased in one&#8217;s favor.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Anon		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2007/01/16/iraq-lost-in-translation/#comment-20603</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jan 2007 21:29:17 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2007/01/iraq-lost-in-translation.html#comment-20603</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[(cont.)

...then one should have been willing to accept the realistic costs of doing so.  There would have been no shame in believing that the cost, while terrible, would have been worth it.  But no one wanted to say this, and instead wanted to say that it would be, essentially, a cakewalk.  Four years later, woops!

&quot;do you ever read bloggers like INF, Yon and Roggio?&quot;

No.  Do you?

&quot;give us your assessment of troop morale in Iraq&quot;

I don&#039;t know much about troop morale in Iraq.  I have heard, from several people here, that anecdotally, troop morale is high.  I also know that over a thousand soldiers, Iraq veterans included, recently signed a petition in favor of withdrawal, and that incidences of PTSD are high among returning troops.  Troop morale is fairly hard to gauge when most troops in Iraq are, you know, in Iraq and not sitting here telling me about morale.  All I know is what the EVIL MEDIA tells me.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>(cont.)</p>
<p>&#8230;then one should have been willing to accept the realistic costs of doing so.  There would have been no shame in believing that the cost, while terrible, would have been worth it.  But no one wanted to say this, and instead wanted to say that it would be, essentially, a cakewalk.  Four years later, woops!</p>
<p>&#8220;do you ever read bloggers like INF, Yon and Roggio?&#8221;</p>
<p>No.  Do you?</p>
<p>&#8220;give us your assessment of troop morale in Iraq&#8221;</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t know much about troop morale in Iraq.  I have heard, from several people here, that anecdotally, troop morale is high.  I also know that over a thousand soldiers, Iraq veterans included, recently signed a petition in favor of withdrawal, and that incidences of PTSD are high among returning troops.  Troop morale is fairly hard to gauge when most troops in Iraq are, you know, in Iraq and not sitting here telling me about morale.  All I know is what the EVIL MEDIA tells me.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Anon		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2007/01/16/iraq-lost-in-translation/#comment-20602</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anon]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 18 Jan 2007 21:28:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2007/01/iraq-lost-in-translation.html#comment-20602</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[&quot;his thesis is who cares about all the facts as long as the overall picture is correct.&quot;

Actually, no.  My thesis is, roughly, that while media representations of reality are inherently inaccurate, because a re-&lt;em&gt;presentation&lt;/em&gt; of reality can never be reality - for a variety of reasons, only one of which is &quot;bias,&quot; - but that this distortion does not invalidate ideologically unpleasant information.  That is, even if there &lt;em&gt;is&lt;/em&gt; systematic bias, the sheer volume of reporting by a huge range of reporters (in which group I will include US government officials who report information on Iraq) indicates that things are, on the whole, pretty awful there.  When the US government releases statistics that indicate things are getting worse, the issue of &quot;media bias&quot; becomes basically irrelevant.  You can crow all you want that this newspaper or that reporter is biased, but &lt;em&gt;even if you only read official numbers coming from the US government itself&lt;/em&gt;, you&#039;d have to conclude that things are going very poorly.

&quot;do you want us to win in Iraq&quot;

If by this question you mean something like &quot;Do you want Iraq to become a prosperous democracy, at peace with itself and its neighbors, from which no terrorism  originates and in which no US troops need be stationed for our benefit or the benefit of Iraqis?&quot; - then yes, I wish for this.  I also wish for a pony and x-ray vision and the superpower of flight.  Whether I want this to happen is largely irrelevant - I don&#039;t believe it can happen.  I don&#039;t believe this primarily because foreign powers can rarely have much impact on the survival of a domestic insurgency, historically.  I&#039;m guessing that you&#039;re definition of &quot;winning&quot; is something like &quot;the US and its ally, the Iraqi government, defeat all enemies of the Iraqi government fighting against it.&quot;  The problem with this is that the Iraqi government is &lt;em&gt;part of the problem&lt;/em&gt;, composed in large part of Shi&#039;a militias which are, in effect, no better than the Sunni militias fighting against it.  I don&#039;t believe that we can achieve (what I assume to be) your definition of victory because, no matter how invested we are in a country of 26 million thousands of miles away, the people &lt;em&gt;who actually live there and view this as a literal life-or-death struggle&lt;/em&gt; will always be more invested than us.

&quot;what suggestions do you have for us to win in Iraq?&quot;

I don&#039;t think there ever was a possibility for us to &quot;win&quot; according to the above-defined metric.  We could easily overthrow Saddam and, if they had existed, eliminate his WMD programs.  That&#039;s about it - but it&#039;s important to remember that the very real and very likely result of removing a country&#039;s government without a substantial replacement was going to be insurgency and civil war in that country.  A more sober assessment prior to 2003 would have dealt with this reality - if one believed that toppling Saddam were truly vital, then one should have been willi]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>&#8220;his thesis is who cares about all the facts as long as the overall picture is correct.&#8221;</p>
<p>Actually, no.  My thesis is, roughly, that while media representations of reality are inherently inaccurate, because a re-<em>presentation</em> of reality can never be reality &#8211; for a variety of reasons, only one of which is &#8220;bias,&#8221; &#8211; but that this distortion does not invalidate ideologically unpleasant information.  That is, even if there <em>is</em> systematic bias, the sheer volume of reporting by a huge range of reporters (in which group I will include US government officials who report information on Iraq) indicates that things are, on the whole, pretty awful there.  When the US government releases statistics that indicate things are getting worse, the issue of &#8220;media bias&#8221; becomes basically irrelevant.  You can crow all you want that this newspaper or that reporter is biased, but <em>even if you only read official numbers coming from the US government itself</em>, you&#8217;d have to conclude that things are going very poorly.</p>
<p>&#8220;do you want us to win in Iraq&#8221;</p>
<p>If by this question you mean something like &#8220;Do you want Iraq to become a prosperous democracy, at peace with itself and its neighbors, from which no terrorism  originates and in which no US troops need be stationed for our benefit or the benefit of Iraqis?&#8221; &#8211; then yes, I wish for this.  I also wish for a pony and x-ray vision and the superpower of flight.  Whether I want this to happen is largely irrelevant &#8211; I don&#8217;t believe it can happen.  I don&#8217;t believe this primarily because foreign powers can rarely have much impact on the survival of a domestic insurgency, historically.  I&#8217;m guessing that you&#8217;re definition of &#8220;winning&#8221; is something like &#8220;the US and its ally, the Iraqi government, defeat all enemies of the Iraqi government fighting against it.&#8221;  The problem with this is that the Iraqi government is <em>part of the problem</em>, composed in large part of Shi&#8217;a militias which are, in effect, no better than the Sunni militias fighting against it.  I don&#8217;t believe that we can achieve (what I assume to be) your definition of victory because, no matter how invested we are in a country of 26 million thousands of miles away, the people <em>who actually live there and view this as a literal life-or-death struggle</em> will always be more invested than us.</p>
<p>&#8220;what suggestions do you have for us to win in Iraq?&#8221;</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think there ever was a possibility for us to &#8220;win&#8221; according to the above-defined metric.  We could easily overthrow Saddam and, if they had existed, eliminate his WMD programs.  That&#8217;s about it &#8211; but it&#8217;s important to remember that the very real and very likely result of removing a country&#8217;s government without a substantial replacement was going to be insurgency and civil war in that country.  A more sober assessment prior to 2003 would have dealt with this reality &#8211; if one believed that toppling Saddam were truly vital, then one should have been willi</p>
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