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	Comments on: The silence of the lambs	</title>
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	<link>https://thenewneo.com/2006/01/31/silence-of-lambs/</link>
	<description>A blog about political change, among other things</description>
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		<title>
		By: Bezuhov		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2006/01/31/silence-of-lambs/#comment-9361</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Bezuhov]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Mar 2007 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2006/01/silence-of-lambs.html#comment-9361</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Nice scare quotes on security there. Of course Israel has nothing to be concerned about, what with the religion of peace inspiring remarkable restraint among the poor long-suffering Palestinian populace. Whatever.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nice scare quotes on security there. Of course Israel has nothing to be concerned about, what with the religion of peace inspiring remarkable restraint among the poor long-suffering Palestinian populace. Whatever.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Anonymous		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2006/01/31/silence-of-lambs/#comment-9362</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Mar 2007 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2006/01/silence-of-lambs.html#comment-9362</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[It is bad enough, of course, that one shoud knowingly kill civillians, even if it is supposedly for &#039;security&#039; reasons.  But I think the issue is not whether Israel kills lots of ciivllians unnecessarily in its security operations (which it does) but that it kills lots of civillians for no reason at all.  The number of Palestinian civillians killed arbitrarily by the IDF is in the thousands, while the number beaten, shot, gassed, and otherwise injured without any official reason given is in the tens of thousands.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Israel is running a prison, and no prison ever existed without keeping the prisoners in fear of their lives all the time.  This is impossible to maintain without senseless killing and violence.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It is bad enough, of course, that one shoud knowingly kill civillians, even if it is supposedly for &#8216;security&#8217; reasons.  But I think the issue is not whether Israel kills lots of ciivllians unnecessarily in its security operations (which it does) but that it kills lots of civillians for no reason at all.  The number of Palestinian civillians killed arbitrarily by the IDF is in the thousands, while the number beaten, shot, gassed, and otherwise injured without any official reason given is in the tens of thousands.</p>
<p>Israel is running a prison, and no prison ever existed without keeping the prisoners in fear of their lives all the time.  This is impossible to maintain without senseless killing and violence.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Ymarsakar		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2006/01/31/silence-of-lambs/#comment-9363</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Ymarsakar]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Mar 2007 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2006/01/silence-of-lambs.html#comment-9363</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[A lot of people don&#039;t mention that there are two sides in a war, and that if one side goes on the defensive then the other goes on the offensive. The side that is more humane and is looking at their bellybuttons, are usually the ones that are going to get combo hit by artillery, mobile assault, and air power.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;There&#039;s no truth without truth in it. You just can&#039;t take one subject and forget everything that happened around it. Can&#039;t take one evidence and say this proves something regardless of any other facts, with fake but accurate.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;WWII was a problem of technology and basic human resources. We have better resources,  which is one of the reasons we can afford to be humane, in the sense that if the WWII Allies were humane, they would have gotten their ass kicked in short time. Because it really didn&#039;t matter if they were or were not humane, they didn&#039;t have the people or the technology to do it, so it didn&#039;t really matter. To be humane was not to be on the attack, to be not on the attack meant losing.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Once High Command could tolerate thousands of collateral dammage after a few bomb strikes, it is very easy to raise the threshold higher based upon the justification that the sooner the war ends, the less people have to die.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;America&#039;s current magnanimity does prolong the war, although it is not a surefire ticket to victory for the terroists. It may simply get more people killed, but it isn&#039;t a propaganda victory. Though it is a morale booster for the enemy, since it makes us out to be weak in their eyes.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;A lot of things have changed since the WWII  generation, and most of the changes are unnoticed. Yet they are fundamental to the war being conducted now.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Such things as JDAMs and GPS and laser guided missiles and self-guided munitions make humane warfare possible. Therefore the temptation in WWII to wrack up more kills to end the war and break the enemy&#039;s will to fight, although politically impossible given how Hitler was still alive, made logical sense given the technology and military inefficiency of those days. Those days were about speed and numbers. Our war suffers from the same temptation, but a temptation to lower the casualties given our technology. We face such needs as accuracy instead of speed, intelligence instead of numbers.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Those things set the tone for warfare. Yet it also sets up the gaps in the defensive perimeter that can be exploited by the enemy. The greater point is that just as Goering can exploit via propaganda the Allies destruction of civilians, the terroists can also exploit the Coalition&#039;s humane treatment.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Hitler was Germany&#039;s center of gravity and weakness, the question most people don&#039;t know to ask is what is Al-Qaedas.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;If we are wrong, if Al-Qaeda&#039;s center of gravity is not the Middle East and the people&#039;s support, then we might still win the war. Just as the Allies&#039; mistook Germany&#039;s will to fight as residing in their people, and yet still won.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;America did not mistake the center of gravity of Japan, which is why we got Japan to surrender. We knew the center of gravity was the Emperor and we won that gamble.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Whoever was in charge of the German campaign, lost his. Probably it suffered from too much vengeance and rage. As with Versailles, it clouded people&#039;s judgements. Curiously, it did not cloud America&#039;s judgement for the most part.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;For a nation that works spectacularly well alone, it is downright weird that it wants others to butt in.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>A lot of people don&#8217;t mention that there are two sides in a war, and that if one side goes on the defensive then the other goes on the offensive. The side that is more humane and is looking at their bellybuttons, are usually the ones that are going to get combo hit by artillery, mobile assault, and air power.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s no truth without truth in it. You just can&#8217;t take one subject and forget everything that happened around it. Can&#8217;t take one evidence and say this proves something regardless of any other facts, with fake but accurate.</p>
<p>WWII was a problem of technology and basic human resources. We have better resources,  which is one of the reasons we can afford to be humane, in the sense that if the WWII Allies were humane, they would have gotten their ass kicked in short time. Because it really didn&#8217;t matter if they were or were not humane, they didn&#8217;t have the people or the technology to do it, so it didn&#8217;t really matter. To be humane was not to be on the attack, to be not on the attack meant losing.</p>
<p>Once High Command could tolerate thousands of collateral dammage after a few bomb strikes, it is very easy to raise the threshold higher based upon the justification that the sooner the war ends, the less people have to die.</p>
<p>America&#8217;s current magnanimity does prolong the war, although it is not a surefire ticket to victory for the terroists. It may simply get more people killed, but it isn&#8217;t a propaganda victory. Though it is a morale booster for the enemy, since it makes us out to be weak in their eyes.</p>
<p>A lot of things have changed since the WWII  generation, and most of the changes are unnoticed. Yet they are fundamental to the war being conducted now.</p>
<p>Such things as JDAMs and GPS and laser guided missiles and self-guided munitions make humane warfare possible. Therefore the temptation in WWII to wrack up more kills to end the war and break the enemy&#8217;s will to fight, although politically impossible given how Hitler was still alive, made logical sense given the technology and military inefficiency of those days. Those days were about speed and numbers. Our war suffers from the same temptation, but a temptation to lower the casualties given our technology. We face such needs as accuracy instead of speed, intelligence instead of numbers.</p>
<p>Those things set the tone for warfare. Yet it also sets up the gaps in the defensive perimeter that can be exploited by the enemy. The greater point is that just as Goering can exploit via propaganda the Allies destruction of civilians, the terroists can also exploit the Coalition&#8217;s humane treatment.</p>
<p>Hitler was Germany&#8217;s center of gravity and weakness, the question most people don&#8217;t know to ask is what is Al-Qaedas.</p>
<p>If we are wrong, if Al-Qaeda&#8217;s center of gravity is not the Middle East and the people&#8217;s support, then we might still win the war. Just as the Allies&#8217; mistook Germany&#8217;s will to fight as residing in their people, and yet still won.</p>
<p>America did not mistake the center of gravity of Japan, which is why we got Japan to surrender. We knew the center of gravity was the Emperor and we won that gamble.</p>
<p>Whoever was in charge of the German campaign, lost his. Probably it suffered from too much vengeance and rage. As with Versailles, it clouded people&#8217;s judgements. Curiously, it did not cloud America&#8217;s judgement for the most part.</p>
<p>For a nation that works spectacularly well alone, it is downright weird that it wants others to butt in.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Richard Aubrey		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2006/01/31/silence-of-lambs/#comment-9364</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard Aubrey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Mar 2007 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2006/01/silence-of-lambs.html#comment-9364</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[I guess it depends on who&#039;s apologizing.  The State Department hasn&#039;t been on our side in decades.  Kennedy said the toughest part of his job was making State do what he wanted them to do.  In a kind of super-unionism, the senior Foreign Service Officers can only be fired by a committee of their peers.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Their pensions are apparently supplemented by Saudi money.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;As one Saudi said, when you take care of your friends when they&#039;re retired, you&#039;ll have more friends who aren&#039;t retired.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;And journos are sort of like CNN and Eason Jordan.  Either cowards or above the unseemly Americanism of Americans.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;I&#039;m not apologizing and I&#039;m going to buy Danish shortly.  Ham, maybe.&lt;BR/&gt;Since I don&#039;t drink anything that costs more than my aftershave, it would have to be food.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Well, apology or not, this could have been a test to see if Muslims would act like civilized people or like fanatics.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Thanks for responding to our little survey, guys.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I guess it depends on who&#8217;s apologizing.  The State Department hasn&#8217;t been on our side in decades.  Kennedy said the toughest part of his job was making State do what he wanted them to do.  In a kind of super-unionism, the senior Foreign Service Officers can only be fired by a committee of their peers.</p>
<p>Their pensions are apparently supplemented by Saudi money.</p>
<p>As one Saudi said, when you take care of your friends when they&#8217;re retired, you&#8217;ll have more friends who aren&#8217;t retired.</p>
<p>And journos are sort of like CNN and Eason Jordan.  Either cowards or above the unseemly Americanism of Americans.</p>
<p>I&#8217;m not apologizing and I&#8217;m going to buy Danish shortly.  Ham, maybe.<br />Since I don&#8217;t drink anything that costs more than my aftershave, it would have to be food.</p>
<p>Well, apology or not, this could have been a test to see if Muslims would act like civilized people or like fanatics.</p>
<p>Thanks for responding to our little survey, guys.</p>
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		<title>
		By: erasmus		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2006/01/31/silence-of-lambs/#comment-9365</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[erasmus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Mar 2007 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2006/01/silence-of-lambs.html#comment-9365</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Richard Aubrey:&lt;BR/&gt;Been following the Danish cartoon insanity. You have no idea how angry I am at Europeans and Americans for not responding with united fury. &lt;BR/&gt;I came to the USA after WWII as a refugee kid and what fell in love with was a Twain/Mencken spirit of anybody can say anything (not inciting harm to others etc) about any topic--from God to Jesus to Moses and all elected officials and Important or Self-Important Poobahs in all areas of public life and cultural life.&lt;BR/&gt;Now, we debate (here and in Europe) the possibility or need of an APOLOGY.&lt;BR/&gt;To hell with that.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard Aubrey:<br />Been following the Danish cartoon insanity. You have no idea how angry I am at Europeans and Americans for not responding with united fury. <br />I came to the USA after WWII as a refugee kid and what fell in love with was a Twain/Mencken spirit of anybody can say anything (not inciting harm to others etc) about any topic&#8211;from God to Jesus to Moses and all elected officials and Important or Self-Important Poobahs in all areas of public life and cultural life.<br />Now, we debate (here and in Europe) the possibility or need of an APOLOGY.<br />To hell with that.</p>
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		<title>
		By: Richard Aubrey		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2006/01/31/silence-of-lambs/#comment-9366</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard Aubrey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Mar 2007 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2006/01/silence-of-lambs.html#comment-9366</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Erasmus.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Morgenthau would have killed half the Germans, more or less, by starvation/default.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;The point is that, by the time of WW II, people were really, really pissed.  Really pissed off. Insanely angry. I use Morgenthau to demonstrate it, not to promote his plan.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;No reason not to be insanely angry.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;We have an interesting situation today, in which most of the fighting men are either regulars who have some roots in the post towns in the States, or Guard and Reserve troops who come from damn&#039; near a neigborhood.&lt;BR/&gt;That means a bad day for a particular company, even if the rest of the forces are taking it easy, is a very bad day for a particular town.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;It hasn&#039;t happened to us much since the Civil War, but once in a while circumstances conspire.&lt;BR/&gt;There&#039;s a town in southern Wisconsin whose WW I monument lists a surprising number of dead, considering our casualties in the war and the size of the town--small.  I think it&#039;s Burlington, but I haven&#039;t been there in thirty years.  If every town were like that in the entire country and the same bastards started up again....]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Erasmus.</p>
<p>Morgenthau would have killed half the Germans, more or less, by starvation/default.</p>
<p>The point is that, by the time of WW II, people were really, really pissed.  Really pissed off. Insanely angry. I use Morgenthau to demonstrate it, not to promote his plan.</p>
<p>No reason not to be insanely angry.</p>
<p>We have an interesting situation today, in which most of the fighting men are either regulars who have some roots in the post towns in the States, or Guard and Reserve troops who come from damn&#8217; near a neigborhood.<br />That means a bad day for a particular company, even if the rest of the forces are taking it easy, is a very bad day for a particular town.</p>
<p>It hasn&#8217;t happened to us much since the Civil War, but once in a while circumstances conspire.<br />There&#8217;s a town in southern Wisconsin whose WW I monument lists a surprising number of dead, considering our casualties in the war and the size of the town&#8211;small.  I think it&#8217;s Burlington, but I haven&#8217;t been there in thirty years.  If every town were like that in the entire country and the same bastards started up again&#8230;.</p>
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		<title>
		By: erasmus		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2006/01/31/silence-of-lambs/#comment-9367</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[erasmus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Mar 2007 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2006/01/silence-of-lambs.html#comment-9367</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[above: not anon, but erasmus]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>above: not anon, but erasmus</p>
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		<title>
		By: Anonymous		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2006/01/31/silence-of-lambs/#comment-9368</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Anonymous]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Mar 2007 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2006/01/silence-of-lambs.html#comment-9368</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Richard Aubrey&lt;BR/&gt;Well, of course. And then Britain, which stood alone against Hitler from the fall of France until Pearl, lost the most after the war. And the bloody Germans experienced their Wirtschaftswunder (economic miracle) in the mid-1950s (1) and for a while turned into the strong man of Europe.&lt;BR/&gt;Read quite a bit about Morgenthau&#039;s plan (a good deal is in Beschloss, &quot;The Conquerors&quot;), but Germany as a Kartoffelacker (potato field) would have had awful consequences too. &lt;BR/&gt;I was there in the US Army (57-59) (4th Armored) and then lived in Hamburg as a prof of an American Jr Year Abroad and visiting lecturer in 1973-74. Tectonic shift! That year in Hamburg the Germans were bemoaning the loss of a sense of humor--a &quot;Jewish thing,&quot; as one prof at a seminar phrased it so delicately. &lt;BR/&gt;The Pythons picked up on that one beautifully. &lt;BR/&gt;Do multicultural societies develop a sense of humor? I doubt it. No &quot;there, there.&quot;]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard Aubrey<br />Well, of course. And then Britain, which stood alone against Hitler from the fall of France until Pearl, lost the most after the war. And the bloody Germans experienced their Wirtschaftswunder (economic miracle) in the mid-1950s (1) and for a while turned into the strong man of Europe.<br />Read quite a bit about Morgenthau&#8217;s plan (a good deal is in Beschloss, &#8220;The Conquerors&#8221;), but Germany as a Kartoffelacker (potato field) would have had awful consequences too. <br />I was there in the US Army (57-59) (4th Armored) and then lived in Hamburg as a prof of an American Jr Year Abroad and visiting lecturer in 1973-74. Tectonic shift! That year in Hamburg the Germans were bemoaning the loss of a sense of humor&#8211;a &#8220;Jewish thing,&#8221; as one prof at a seminar phrased it so delicately. <br />The Pythons picked up on that one beautifully. <br />Do multicultural societies develop a sense of humor? I doubt it. No &#8220;there, there.&#8221;</p>
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		<title>
		By: Richard Aubrey		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2006/01/31/silence-of-lambs/#comment-9369</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[Richard Aubrey]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Mar 2007 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2006/01/silence-of-lambs.html#comment-9369</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Well, Erasmus, considering the Germans attacked everybody they could find on a map, twice, and killed a good many Brits--maybe five times as many as of the US--the forgive-forget thing takes a bit more time.&lt;BR/&gt;I first noticed that in the Benny Hill comedies, while there were a few digs in Fawlty Towers.&lt;BR/&gt;And the occasional monologue comics earlier.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Kipling wrote a poem about the Witches of En-dor.  It apparently warned against the swarms of seances or whatever it was going on after WW I as women tried to talk to their men.&lt;BR/&gt;I don&#039;t know if Kipling actually thought something might come if called from the vasty deep or if he simply knew this was a losing effort when he said the end is ruin and death (in some metaphorical fashion).&lt;BR/&gt;Missing from his anthologies are some stories about the war--called &quot;hysterical&quot;--but, then, he&#039;d had to pull strings to get his son past a physical, only to see him killed fighting with the Irish Guards in 1915.  Leaving three more years.&lt;BR/&gt;&lt;BR/&gt;Missing from discussions of the operations in WW II is the fact that the decision makers on the Allied side were all adults during--if they did not fight in--WW I.  They saw the horror and they saw the result of letting the bastards back up.&lt;BR/&gt;THAT was sure as hell not going to happen again.&lt;BR/&gt;You ever hear of the Morgenthau Plan?&lt;BR/&gt;Nope.  Never again.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Well, Erasmus, considering the Germans attacked everybody they could find on a map, twice, and killed a good many Brits&#8211;maybe five times as many as of the US&#8211;the forgive-forget thing takes a bit more time.<br />I first noticed that in the Benny Hill comedies, while there were a few digs in Fawlty Towers.<br />And the occasional monologue comics earlier.</p>
<p>Kipling wrote a poem about the Witches of En-dor.  It apparently warned against the swarms of seances or whatever it was going on after WW I as women tried to talk to their men.<br />I don&#8217;t know if Kipling actually thought something might come if called from the vasty deep or if he simply knew this was a losing effort when he said the end is ruin and death (in some metaphorical fashion).<br />Missing from his anthologies are some stories about the war&#8211;called &#8220;hysterical&#8221;&#8211;but, then, he&#8217;d had to pull strings to get his son past a physical, only to see him killed fighting with the Irish Guards in 1915.  Leaving three more years.</p>
<p>Missing from discussions of the operations in WW II is the fact that the decision makers on the Allied side were all adults during&#8211;if they did not fight in&#8211;WW I.  They saw the horror and they saw the result of letting the bastards back up.<br />THAT was sure as hell not going to happen again.<br />You ever hear of the Morgenthau Plan?<br />Nope.  Never again.</p>
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		<title>
		By: erasmus		</title>
		<link>https://thenewneo.com/2006/01/31/silence-of-lambs/#comment-9370</link>

		<dc:creator><![CDATA[erasmus]]></dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 03 Mar 2007 07:00:00 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neoneocon.com/2006/01/silence-of-lambs.html#comment-9370</guid>

					<description><![CDATA[Richard Aubrey:&lt;BR/&gt;Yep, results would have been similar, if less severe, without the directive. &lt;BR/&gt;Moreover, Americans often don&#039;t take into account UK responses toward Germans during and after the Blitz.&lt;BR/&gt;Look at the Brit tabloids today. Nazi jokes a la Benny Hill. And then Prince Henry did his cute Swastika trick. &lt;BR/&gt;There are other directives and memos of debates. In the Taylor book, in older sources, in German histories of late. For Germans it&#039;s a relatively new topic.]]></description>
			<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Richard Aubrey:<br />Yep, results would have been similar, if less severe, without the directive. <br />Moreover, Americans often don&#8217;t take into account UK responses toward Germans during and after the Blitz.<br />Look at the Brit tabloids today. Nazi jokes a la Benny Hill. And then Prince Henry did his cute Swastika trick. <br />There are other directives and memos of debates. In the Taylor book, in older sources, in German histories of late. For Germans it&#8217;s a relatively new topic.</p>
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