P.S.

I just wanted to add one small thing. Which is that the enemy is strong in propagandizing and brainwashing their next generation to serve as cannon fodder to kill more Americans.

We must then, not attack this directly by killing all the terroists. Attack their weak point, or flank them. And we flank them by getting their own people to turn on the terroists, because if they don’t, we or our allies are going to kill them or the terroists (like in Iraq) will kill them out of fear that they will help us.

Make a civil war occur in the enemy’s ranks, weaken them, divide and conquer. You can’t divide when both sides are evil, so there has to be some moderates. A lot of them in fact. Or else, the whole thing is hopeless on a human level.

What are Hamas and Hizbollah going to do? IEDs? VBIEDs planted among children, suicide bombers blowing up our barracks? Been there, done that, saw it written in an after action report.

The moderates exist, they would have to given the human uniqueness among a large segment population. Since they exist in Iraq, and we’re using the moderates to help us, it is a useful tool. It is perhaps the KEY INGREDIENT to successfully drain the swamp. Because if you don’t want to rule that section of the ME, then you have to find people who are patriotic, capable, and motivated to do so in your stead.

In some ways, the word moderate doesn’t tell the whole story. Being moderate in the pursuit of freedom, isn’t a virtue. No, moderation in this sense, has to mean pragmatism. Doing not what your fellow people are doing or what your intellectual/religous leaders are saying/doing, but doing what you have to do, because your survival and the future of your children depend upon it. No Empty Slogans, no fighting for a socialist Utopia, not fighting for a Utopia under Allah free of Jews, just fighting for life, food, and a job.

Assassinating terroist leaders is in fact, not WORTH the price of the informant’s lives. Because we need those people, if ever we had to go in and remake Palestine so that terroists cannot recruit any more people. We take their territory away from them, logistically and resource based.

Israel could have done that, if they had the will and manpower, but since they didn’t have those things they wouldn’t and couldn’t do it. Which is why Israel is still fighting the Arabs. I can’t imagine the Americans still fighting in Iraq after 40 years…

Their occupation is all about being on the defense, never about being on the offense as we are in Iraq doing. The mentality isn’t quite the same.

Our Soldiers become Imperialist Grunts, and I don’t mean that in a derogatory way. They bring law, order, and our culture, things that all Empires brought to subject people for the betterment of the subject people. But since we don’t have the infrastructure of Empire, our Soldiers do the job without the danger of an expansionist Empire.

Therefore that is why you hear stories about Iraqis helping Americans, when we expect them not to do so because we are occupiers. Guess what? To the Iraqis, they didn’t mind being occupied, what they minded was how inept Americans were in replacing Saddam rule with American rule. They misunderstood our intentions, and we misunderstood their logic.

That always happens when two cultures collide anyways.

here’s a link about Iraqis helping Americans.

http://thunder6.typepad.com/365_arabian_nights/2005/09/the_roadblock.html

You can find such stories everywhere, they’re there, they just aren’t easy to find if you don’t look somewhere other than the MSM and AP/Reuters network.

Well, after they get killed they are a very silent minority. But can you imagine what sort of courage it takes to be a Palestinian informer?

They also get killed for collaborating with Israel.

Other than that, they are basically a silent minority.

I take it for granted that the Palestinians are self-destructing. This is why I so strongly agree with Ariel Sharon’s decision to move the settlers behind the Wall. I don’t believe in the good intentions of Palestinians—my faith is invested in the Wall. The IDF can also take effective military action whenever necessary.

Are there any moderate Palestinians? Yes, but it really doesn’t make any difference. They are powerless and fearful of their more radical cohorts. Out of sight and out of mind. The hell with the Palestinians. They must now sleep in the bed of their own making. One should have as much concern for them as you would for a level three child molester.

I also wrote that such moderates, “haven’t got a chance.”
I mean that in two ways: they haven’t got a chance of gaining any power, and they haven’t got a chance of living if they do speak up.

Why do I make the point, then, that there probably are some Palestinian moderates? Is it irrelevant? Yes and no. It’s irrelevant in terms of policy–Israel and the US must act as though they don’t exist right now, because effectively they don’t.

But I think it is important in human terms to at least keep their possible existence in mind, however powerless and silenced they might be.

I echo “What Dilemna?”

Its very simple.

Arabs hate Jews.

Forever and Ever.

neo-neocon said…

“Gumshoe 1: It’s not a sort of starry-eyed liberal hope that makes me believe there are moderate Palestinians.
In every population, even those that are brainwashed and socialized into extreme violence and hatred (i.e. the Nazis, the Palestinians),
there is a certain percentage on whom the extreme indoctrination simply does not “take.” “

yes,but clearly these people don’t ACT.
they’ve been neutered by a culture of terror.
i think calling such a person a “moderate” is a stretch.

neo-neocon said…
” Another reason I am certain there are at least some moderate Palestinians is I have read a number of articles
(I don’t have the sites, unfortunately) that describe how the generation of older Palestinians,
the ones who were raised before the indoctrination in hatred reached its current intensity,
are not so mired in hate as their younger counterparts. Unfortunately, as this group dies off,
their percentage in the population (already perhaps very small), will grow even smaller. But at present, they do exist.”

but do they have the respect of the young?
i say they do not.
the young have been trained to see such people as traitors,collaborators,or simply “the weak horse”.
negotiating,from an extremist’s point of view, is for people without Power.

Reading the Quran,neo…

1)
would clarify:why Papa Ray’s comment is unfortunately true.

the Quran is taken as the literal word of Allah.
the original version exists in Paradise and can never be altered or critically (or anthropologically) examined by Muslims.
Allah hates Jews.
So Mohammad says.
“Forever and Ever.”

2)
would clarify:why Islam is a culture of terror.
terror is the tool of both empire building and *governmental control*.
its founder and prime practioner was Mohammad…Mohammad is the model for Muslims.

3)
would clarify:why your secular,sociology-based counting of “older,more moderate Palestianians”,
while possibly accurate and interesting,is practically irrelevant given that…

a) the Palestinian (PLO) charter,despite ALL the Road Maps,Oslo Accords,etc.
STILL not only doesn’t recognize Israel’s right to exist.. the PLO Charter OPENLY states:

http://www.iris.org.il/plochart.htm

Article 15: The liberation of Palestine, from an Arab viewpoint, is a national (qawmi) duty and it attempts to repel the Zionist and imperialist aggression against the Arab homeland, and aims at the elimination of Zionism in Palestine. Absolute responsibility for this falls upon the Arab nation – peoples and governments – with the Arab people of Palestine in the vanguard. Accordingly, the Arab nation must mobilize all its military, human, moral, and spiritual capabilities to participate actively with the Palestinian people in the liberation of Palestine. It must, particularly in the phase of the armed Palestinian revolution, offer and furnish the Palestinian people with all possible help, and material and human support, and make available to them the means and opportunities that will enable them to continue to carry out their leading role in the armed revolution, until they liberate their homeland.

Note, however, that the PLO’s translation sometimes deviates from the original Arabic so as to be more palatable to Western readers. For example, in Article 15, the Arabic is translated as “the elimination of Zionism,” whereas the correct translation is “the liquidation of the Zionist presence.” “The Zionist presence” is a common Arabic euphemism for the State of Israel, so this clause in fact calls for the destruction of Israel, not just the end of Zionism.

so you can see the PLO “State” policy has little to do with whatever “moderate agenda” might be considered
constructive in the sense of “Two States living side by side in Peace”…it’s not ON the Agenda ,except when it buys
time,or foreign aid,or positive publicity,all of which are directed to….Article 15,”the Agenda”.

b) the Palestinians are the pawns of larger Arab ambitions and have been for some time(see article 15 above)
it has never been “the Palestinians out there,lonely,and on their own”.

and the last item is the reason why they are in the role of pawns:

4)
why does Jerusalem matter?

Israel is an obstacle to the triumph of Islam,and (radical?) Muslims’ desire for the return of the Caliphate.
if Allah allows the destruction of Israel,who will stand in the way of the Caliphate?

i’m not trying to be bleak.
i am trying to be accurate.

hth-
-gumshoe