What made me think you’re a Conservative?

“Jesus, I’ve lived in leftist communities for 35 years and I’ve heard that crap spouted 7 hundred million times. It’s the party line.”

And the way you evade answering any specific points or questions.

Of course if you’re not a Conservative I apologise.

“War is part of the human condition.”

Part of the human condition? Like the weather? Oh, OK, no need to try and stop it then, is there? IT’S OK, KEEP ON KILLIN’, IT’S NORMAL!

“War does not arise from people lying.”

Lying and misrepresentation is not a part of the persuassion process, to convince parents to send their kids to war, to manufacture their consent? ..Where have you been?

“Humans can probably not eradicate war, at least without paying a huge psychic and spiritual cost.”

Obviously more painful then the phsyical and financial costs of war.
Then besides the “costs” of war, there’s THE PROFITS. But of ocurse that’s irrelevant, it’s just the “human condition” that leads us blindly into battles.

“War is bad. Fix it. This is stupidity and evil incarnate.”

Stopping war is stupid and evil?
..You’re a fucking idiot.

“Munch on it for a while. Try actually thinking. It’s not something you’ve ever done.”

..Are you sure you’re not an American Conservative, you sure sound like one.

Who in the hell said I was a conservative? How do you know this? Somehow, in the weird vernacular of your kind, anybody who disagrees with you is a conservative.

Here’s some original thinking for you. War is part of the human condition. War does not arise from people lying. Humans can probably not eradicate war, at least without paying a huge psychic and spiritual cost.

Your thinking is the great moral and philosophical error of the 20th century. It seems simple to you. War is bad. Fix it. This is stupidity and evil incarnate.

Munch on it for a while. Try actually thinking. It’s not something you’ve ever done.

“Jesus, I’ve lived in leftist communities for 35 years and I’ve heard that crap spouted 7 hundred million times. It’s the party line.°

Whether it’s the party line or not, or how many times YOU heard it (who ever you are) is not the issue. The issue is whether it is true or not.

To demonstare the validity of my concern about America’s bull shit conventional wisdom, walk the streets and ask how many American’s know that Ho Chi Minh’s alliance WITH AMERICANS made him leader of Vietnam, not the Russians.

Or that Hitler was a model anti-communist with many powerful allies in the west.

You can sluff my remarks off with your typical American conservative arrogance and posturing, but in my book you’re just another American conservative ass-hole dodging the bullets.

“Ho, what in the hell is it that makes you think that your thinking is original?”

My intention is not to be original, it is to wake you idiots up. We’ve been lied to all our lives.

To fight another war.

The really surprising part of Ho’s diatribes is that he doesn’t recognize himself as a purveyor of “conventional wisdom.” Jesus, I’ve lived in leftist communities for 35 years and I’ve heard that crap spouted 7 hundred million times. It’s the party line.

Ho, what in the hell is it that makes you think that your thinking is original?

You may choose to interpret my recounting of history as “America bashing”, “self–flagellation” and “terrorist sympathizing”, but I’m only interjecting the bits, and vital ones at that, that American conventional wisdom has conveniently left out, ..to manufacture the consent of bone-heads like yourself to support yet another of our Imperial wars.

Your ignorance of the Nazi era is not suprising, considering your views on Islam. Hitler was certainly “blowing-back” to some “threats”, like communists maybe taking over Germany and Europe, Depression and the lousy Versaille deal, and imaginary ones, Jews and his genral racism.

The Islamic blow-back I talk about comes from an even more real, more direct kind: BOMBS DROPPING ON THEIR HEADS, and Western backed, brutal dictators running their countries and foreign policies for half a century.

What does connect these two themes is the radical elements (of both Germany and the Middle East) support by influential sectors of western societies, and for the same reason: Anti-communism. Without “our” help I doubt either could have done much harm on their own. Amazing how easy the Taliban could be beaten, WHEN WE WEREN’T ARMING AND TRAINING THEM.

The voices of sanity I was referring to were those, particularly German insiders, that informed western decision makers (at great risk to themselves) of Hitler’s true intentions, and to stand up to him while they could, long before Churchill. Once Hitler was in Poland it was too late, we had already allowed him to take most of Europe, it’s industry, resources and finances.

My point was I believe “we” wanted him to have it, to rub communism off the map, to attack Russia. If this is in fact the case “appeasment” is the wrong word, the wrong interpretation, not to mention the wrong lesson learned: Never to appease.

It’s not appeasement if what we gave him is what we wanted him to have (to destroy communism).

After 80 years of supporting anti-communist goons, in every corner of the planet, why is anyone suprised that “we” would support Hitler, one of the most rabid anti-communists of all time, one determined to attack communism at its source. And did.

I’ll tell you why you’re suprised: Because you’ve been lied to most of your life.

The validity of Hitler as a western anti-communist ally could be discussed, but who dares?

You?

There is an interesting theme that’s a little buried here, though, and that has to do with the admitted comparison of contempory Islamist terrorists with the thirties malignancy of a swelling fascism. And with the link between those phenomena and the earlier rise of communism, all three being examples of the great horror of modern times: the emergence of a utopian and murderous totalitarianism. What should be the lesson of the past century is that such monstrosities, once created, are not amenable to negotiation or appeasement. Ho is at least right to say that “Yet like W.W.II there are many voices of sanity that were ignored, many ways out of that war passed over” — one of the major examples of such voices, of course, was Churchill’s, who advocated a firm and forceful early response to Nazi “blowback”, and was not heeded until it was too late. We shouldn’t make that mistake again.

I don’t blame America for the growth of Hitler, I blame certain (quite powerful) sectors of American society, and other western societies, for it. Hitler was an anti-communist and Germany was in trouble (we thought).

It is basically the same story we’ve heard “a million” times. The “west” (certain sectors anyway) backs a goon against communism, then sooner or later, when their use has run it’s course, we have to get rid of them. War. Our justification is their wickedness, yet it was “us” that helped create them, elevate them to a position they could do any harm in the first place.

Saddam Hussein’ Baath Party was 850 members when the CIA hired them. The Mujhadeen in Afghanistan was also a minority, to say the least. They served a function, to US.

As for what the German’s thought of Hitler, you may recall 72% of Germans DID NOT vote for him in the last election. How he was appointed Chancellor is a quite interesting story, full of intrigue, which mysteriously has been swept under the rug. “Thirty Days To Power”, by
(fogot his first name) Turner, professor at Cambridge, is a good introduction to this critical part of history, January 1933, which few have ever heard of (and for good reason).

Clearly many Germans “cheered” Hitler, we’ve seen the films. Yet nobody was filming the ones who despised him, were they? Of course when he was Chancellor and later voted dictatorial powers, it was too late for the ordinary citizen to do much. Risk your life, your family? Patriotism, to sertve ones country, also was a came into play, as in our own country. Plenty rebelled, and died. Some believed. Some didn’t but were swept up by events.

As for Islamo-fascists, I don’t buy it. We’ve caused them enough grief, and still are, to justify a blow-back. I wish there was another way for them to express their anger, but unfortunately our leaders, for half a century, have not been up to the diplomatic task, or their constituents either. Thus we have terrorism.

Demonizing is much easier then trying to understand how and why things happened, or are happening.

Hitler gave the Germans the wealth, security and power that they craved, and they loved him for it. The German people, and millions of other Europeans loved Hitler, loved the benefits that Nazism could offer them. That was why so many Germans and other Europeans were willing to help with the mass slaughter of the Jews – or to look the other way.

They were nice to fascists, and now you’re advising us to be nice to fascists too. No suprises there.

Glad you’re enjoying this. I am too, and thank you for giving me the opportunity to glimpse into the warped American mind. But I’ll have to disappoint you, “Left” or “Right” means nothing to me, only making sense.

Again, you’re references to “guilt and fear” are curious. What are you American’s talking about all the time? I have no guilt or fear, other then seeing another war, started on false pretenences, get out of control and swallow us all up. Oh, and kill lots of people for nothing. At any rate, the American conservative’s tendency to throw arguments of international relations and history onto the “shrinks couch”
is an utterly pathetic ruse. Pathetic.

Regarding Middle East oil, our consumption of it has certainly “helped” the region, and us. Nothing wrong with free trade is there. How many it’s helped is another question entirely.

The Middle East is no different to any other region in this regard, as most revenues are returned in the form of military expenditures (our industry), corruption (our banks and economy), extravagance (our products and economy)etc. The Arab people see very little of this profit, one of the problems. Not that they haven’t tried, I only say those that did were generally rubbed out by us or our brutal authoritarian allies.
Dr. Mossagdeh is but one example.

Perhaps it’s time for the American Conservative (like you) to face up to reality, that is, dictatorships bring the stability our investment and “security” require, not democracy. This is America’s fundamental lie. In Iraq we’re bringing it with conditions, the primary one that the Shiite’s keep a good distance away from their Iranian cousins, in the long run wishful thinking on our part, and only one feature of Bush’s current juggling act.

I imagine when Iraq gets too democratic down the road, that is the majority Shiite’s actually excercise their democratic right to run their foreign policy the way they see fit, the US and UK will be right there to intervene with a strong man again. I bet you’ll be there too, won’t you Larry?

And I will agree what America is doing isn’t blow-back (“yet”?). Bombing and invading has been a cornerstone of US foreign policy for over 200 years (last count from the U.S. Library of Congress ca. 300 instances of “use of force abroad”).
9/11 only gave us the opportunity (justification) to achieve what we always wanted, to control Middle East oil.

I want Bush and Blair to succeed as much as you, yet considering our track record in the region and our relations with these people, the way they’re going about it is entirely counter-productive, to say the least. Like I said before, the message is good, the messenger stinks.

And again, when did we ever care about anyone, or what they think? And why do we have to? We’ve got the might, and apparently a sufficiently brain-washed society to rationalise it’s use under any circumstance.

And yes, the Arab “terrorist”, like many Third World “communist terrorists”, came from good, well educated back grounds. Funny that, they were educated, saw what we were and what we were doing, and rebelled. I wonder why. While the “foot soldiers” might be the poor, disullusioned, victims or relatives of violence, it is no suprise that all sectors of Arab society see the injustice of what’s happening, and will all join in some way or other to fight it. Radicalising some will only marginalise the moderates, make their voices harder to hear. It is a delicate situation, one for seasoned diplomacy, not grunts from the 81st Airborne.

“No, we’re not dealing with desparate people, clearly, we’re dealing with deranged people of a particular sort, the sort of political/cultural psychosis that seized a goodly portion of entire nations a few generations ago.”

If you’re referring to Nazi Germany you’re right. Both problems, the Nazi’s and Islamic fundamentalism, were spawned in the swamp of anti-communism. Both were aided by the west, politically, financially and militarily to destroy communism. Both were monsters we helped create and then left to deal with, that is, WAR, MOUNTAINS OF DESTRUCTION AND HUMAN CORPSES’.

Yet like W.W.II there are many voices of sanity that were ignored, many ways out of that war passed over. But again, control is what drives us, nothing else.

“This, of course, is the central fear of the liberals — that in meeting violence with force of any kind we may be “creating more terrorists”. And it’s true, we may be, and then we’ll just have to kill more”

We don’t “have to”, there are a mirade other ways to difuse the situation.

“(granting them the death they claim they love), as this conflict comes to a head.”

I believe you’re misinterpeting a pre-disposed Islamic “death wish” with dying with honour in the face of an enemy, something we as well regard as heroic.

“What the liberal mind — which wants so desparately (!) to be thought of as “nice” — cannot grasp at all, however, is the idea that passivity and meekness can be seen as mere weakness, and that this in turn can be an invitation to aggression and violence.”

What the Conservative mind cannot grasp is the respect power receives when ITS NOT USED. Christ we’re the most powerful nation on earth running around bullying, threatening and bombing the most poor and weak,
and you think that’s going to win us respect? I say just the opposite.

And by the way, what’s wrong with being nice? Obviously our tried and true policies aren’t working. More people have died in wars the last hundered years then in all wars in the history of man. Somethings wrong Larry, and American Conservative is it.

“In other words, the liberal impulse to appease, temporize, back down, or look always to “negotiate” in the face of naked threat may be what gives Islamist thugs the idea that mass murder might actually work for them — and ends up, ironically, “creating more terrorists”.

Horse shit Larry. It’s not naked agression, it’s blow back for what we’ve done and are doing. And the thugs know it, and they know who we are.

They used to work for us.